New workshop project.

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Colin, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,


    I'm unable to get into the garden to do any work due to the constant bad weather; it was bad enough when pouring with rain or hail and temperature hovering just above freezing with a chilling wind blowing at me but enough is enough I call it a day at sub zero temperatures with ice and snow.

    I was fully committed to getting stuck into the garden at the middle of last year with no outstanding jobs hanging over me in fact I was looking forward to gardening for a change; it's usually poor weather here on the valley but all last year the rain seldom let up and today we've got 3C temperature but with rain; sleet; snow; hail and high wind; I've called it a day in the garden and have started a new project in the workshop. I fully restored a very rare Lorch Schmidt German made precision engineering lathe a while ago and have seldom used this lathe since; it is fitted with flat drive belts which I dislike and the tooling is unique to Lorch in that standard Morse Tapers do not fit into either its headstock or tailstock. I could sell this lathe for quite a bit of money because it's so rare and Lorch lathes are highly sought after and respected. I considered buying a more modern Boxford lathe a couple of weeks ago this Boxford coming with tooling and at £1,000 I could easily afford it; the sale of the Lorch would cover this amount without problem but I've been having a very good look at the Lorch which I truly like and would be loathe to part with it.

    The Lorch is in excellent condition showing no signs of wear even though its so old but before I bought it the Lorch had been stored in a scrap yard for over twenty years; I made a top job of the restoration and this Lorch has much to commend it so I decided to keep it and to modify it to suit me but also try to retain its originality as much as possible. During its restoration I upgraded the electric motor to a top quality Brook Motor (I worked at Brook Motors here in Huddersfield for 24 years) I also installed the correct Direct On Line starter so the Lorch now has safe electrics.

    My plan is to upgrade the Lorch further adding VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) these drives give many functions to the motor like full speed control; jogging; braking; forward and reverse etc. I did a similar VFD conversion to me Union Graduate woodturning lathe when I restored the Graduate so I'm conversant with VFD drives. I already had a suitable 1.1KW 3 phase inverter rated motor; Brook of course; the Graduate has an identical motor so can I rig up the wiring from the VFD to power both the Graduate and Lorch lathes? A VFD costs around £90 but I want to experiment a bit rather than just throw money at it after all I've a reputation to keep up being a tight Yorkshireman and I want to try using one VFD for two lathes.

    I've just come out of the workshop having spent three hours in there today enjoying myself. One of these lathe updates looks so easy once completed but just taking measurements for mounting the new motor is quite difficult because it's like measuring fresh air; however I'm a mechanical engineer by trade so there are easy ways around such complicated problems. At the rear of the lathe headstock is located the back gear shaft with its gears and guards this shaft right in the way of the new belt drive so after thinking about options I set about rigging up a mock motor support using a large can of paint and wooden spacers; now I could actually see what I wanted rather than imagine what I wanted; a few adjustments with thickness of timber spaces the position of the motor was now quite near but adding the drive pulley to the motor would make a lot of difference; as yet I don't have the needed 100mm dia Poly-V pulley so I wanted something as a substitute; I could turn a dummy wooden pulley but looking around I found an old 100mm Bull gear wheel so this saved a bit of work and once it was slid onto the motor shaft I was in business; I could fine tune the position of the motor allowing me to take accurate measurements.

    In my steel offcuts I had a pair of welded angle iron brackets which looked promising so I cleaned these up using an angle grinder to remove the old paint; holes were drilled as required and additional mountings welded on taking a lot of care to get this just right because welding is very easy but once welded an item takes a lot of removing if not located correctly. By doing the mounting mock up I saved considerable time and the new motor mounting came together quickly as seen in the pictures below; I've added an 18mm thick base for the motor to sit on but won't drill the motor mounting holes until I have the correct pulley and drive belt to hand; the motor mounting holes need to be slotted to allow for drive belt tension adjustment; I'm adding a 100mm Poly-V drive pulley to the motor shaft but am leaving the original three stepped headstock pulley as is; I'll need to strip the headstock once again in order to install the new drive belt. Ideally I'd have installed the motor beneath the headstock but this Lorch is a very strange design; the headstock drive belt as original has to be joined by stitching in the lathe; the front of the drive belt runs down through the headstock but the rear of the drive belt runs upwards outside the headstock which is a major problem when installing this drive belt; the new Poly-V drive belt won't need cutting and stitching due to my updated design so can be installed as an endless drive belt making me a lot happier.

    Once the Lorch is modified then I can make my own tooling either from scratch or modify new/second-hand tooling to suit; I'm trained in engineering so won't find this too difficult at all. It's been nice to get out of this terrible weather and play in the workshop; it felt very strange indeed as I settled into the workshop after many months spent in the garden; I recently bought a metal cutting bandsaw and also an oil cooled Oxford 180A arc welder so it's been a pleasure for me to use both these on this project; it's really nice to get my hands dirty once again.

    In an engineering works lots of departments would be involved in this type of project; design; research & development (R&D) drawing office; health & safety; production; installation; testing; the work would be further split into mechanical & electrical all this costing a great deal of time and money and of course on big projects there's no way around this but in my home workshop I do the lot from the first idea to success; I love this kind of project because it keeps my head and hands busy. I'm at home engineering but in gardening I've much to learn.

    I'm unable to post regarding what I do in the garden but I can post about what I do instead of working in the garden in the hope of encouraging others to try something totally different as an hobby. I hope my ramblings are of interest but realize this is a gardening forum and I'm a square peg in a round hole posting about engineering but at least I'm different. This project is ongoing and I'm not in a hurry to complete it.

    Kind regards, Colin.

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    Colin, Feb 11, 2018
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  2. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    I ordered the new Poly-V pulley yesterday and paid for it through eBay; I've just received an apology to say the pulley is out of stock and won't be available for about a month but two different sizes of pulley are in stock; I've just replied saying a 75mm dia pulley will be fine; I've also ordered the correct taper lock bush; I decided to reduce the pulley dia from 100mm dia now down to 75mm dia this will give a speed reduction regarding the ratio but no speed will be lost because of the VFD; reducing the ratio will make life easier for the motor. The VFD though will run the motor up to around 11,000 RPM but the top speed of the lathe I'll set the VFD parameter not to exceed 2,000 RPM.

    The pulley details are 75J12 J Section 2.34 Poly V belt pulley 12 ribs. The pulley bush to suit the motor 19mm shaft is Taper lock bush 1108-19 (MM).

    I've always enjoyed restoring old cast iron machines; this Lorch was a joy to restore and I took it right down to the last nut and bolt; the original paint was removed down to bare metal and a respray carried out; I had previously fully restored my Union Graduate woodturning lathe so I could use this to clean up many of the Lorch parts as shown in the pictures below; I turned a dummy wooden mandrel to mount the Lorch gears on in the Graduate and the result was outstanding; the Lorch after its restoration was a joy to behold. I wonder what my true potential would be if I was allowed decent weather and daylight to work in comfort? These old skills are dying out which is a great shame. I still dream of a sunny warm dry day when I can get into the garden but in the meantime I'll enjoy myself getting dirty in the workshop playing with my toys; it's really a guy thing.

    Kind regards, Colin.

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    Colin, Feb 12, 2018
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  3. Colin

    marlingardener

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    Colin, you are NOT a square peg in a round hole, posting about engineering projects on a garden forum. We all have varied interests--cooking, decorating, crafts, etc.--and enjoy hearing about them. Keep posting, and we'll keep learning.
    We have a lathe for wood turning. I love using it--all those different turning chisels! I do simple things like candle holders and table legs, but my husband is the real master of the lathe. The shavings come in handy for nest box material for the hens, too!
     
    marlingardener, Feb 12, 2018
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  4. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    Thank you Marlingardener for your kind words and encouragement which are always much truly appreciated. I tend to like out of the ordinary projects and if someone says it can't be done then I like to set about doing it and over the years this has taken me to things I've never previously heard of but it's always most interesting at least interesting to me.

    You husband will possibly have already told you about certain woods he turns these being highly hazardous Marlingardener? One of the departments I was in charge of at work was the timber department and guys were always after offcuts of timber for firewood etc; one day a team member wanted wood sawdust/shavings for his guinea pigs and at first he was rather angry with me when I told him no he couldn't wander into the department to collect a bagful? He thought I was being obstructive until I explained I would let him know when suitable timber was being machined because quite a few timbers could possibly kill his guinea pigs; spalted timbers are used a lot by woodturners but the spalting can lead to serious health issues unless correct protection is adopted? Common timbers like Cedar and Iroko for example can cause many problems; timber mostly is OK to handle it's when its breathed in or ingested when it becomes a health issue.

    http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-and-toxicity/

    I'm not trying to be alarmist in any way and generally woodturners are well aware of the problems but many woodturners spend a great deal of money buying what are termed exotic timbers these for their beauty. woodturning is a fascinating hobby in its own right and only this morning Bron and I were watching Jimmy Clewes;



    Just giving offcuts for burning could have landed me into serious trouble; I had to be extremely careful at work because of many hazards; treated timber is very common indeed;

    http://www.gw.govt.nz/assets/RelocatedUploads/Adlam205/Burning-issues-brochure.pdf

    I'd much rather be over cautious and be safe and also ensure safety of all those around me. I can understand your love of working on the lathe and and I bet once you start you don't want to stop; are you aware a lathe is the only machine where a lump of wood can be converted from raw wood into the finished item? What a wonderful hobby woodturning is and I hope to do a lot of woodturning; I have two woodturning lathes and a metal turning lathe; I used to own five lathes. Good on you Marlingardener perhaps you can get other lady members interested in woodturning? My best friend is secretary of his local woodturning club and his club has a monthly demonstrator many of these being internationally known turners. Here's one just for you;

    http://www.toolgirl.com/toolgirl/2009/07/lathe-bloomer-how-to-become-a-woodturner.html

    Most of my woodturning has been furniture related but I'd like to spend time turning small lidded boxes just for the enjoyment?

    Kind regards, Colin.
     
    Colin, Feb 12, 2018
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  5. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    An update, (y) I like to experiment in the workshop doing the unusual. I have the Graduate woodturning lathe powered by an Huanyang 2.2KW VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) running its 1.1KW 3 phase motor the motor connected in "Delta". I'll try to keep it simple but I now want to run my Lorch lathe with an identical set up and I have at least two options; my initial thoughts and for a bit of interest could I run both the Graduate and Lorch from this single VFD; in my head it's possible but I've been put off playing around in the workshop due to the usual dire weather; the obvious second option is to buy another VFD.

    A couple of days ago whilst browsing VFD's on eBay I saw an identical Huanyang VFD same model number same spec as mine at a "Buy it now" price of £85 or "Make an offer"; given how bad our weather is I thought I'd make an offer so offered £80 the original price including shipping.My offer was submitted and I waited; this morning I received a message stating a counter offer had been submitted;

    Offer declined
    Listing ends in
    5d 14h
    Wednesday,05:56 GMT
    £84.50
    Seller's offer
    £85.03
    Buy it now
    Free postage

    Item 2.2KW 220V VFD Inverter 10A Variable Frequency Drive Inverter 3HP for CNC RouterMake Best OfferBuy it now
    More actions

    The original selling price was £85 including shipping but now a counter offer had been put in at £84.50? I'm now expected to up my offer so why did I make the offer in the first place to save less than 50p but here's a polite warning to others seeing this kind of thing; the small print now states shipping isn't included so I would end up paying more than the original asking price? As seen above "Offer declined" by me I'll walk away from this but I've done everything correctly keeping my good eBay record. So plan A has now kicked in and I'll have a go at running both lathes from the one VFD which should be fun.

    I've just enjoyed myself in the workshop; it's bitterly cold again outside so I wrapped up well; first thing to do was to ensure my safety because I'm playing around with mains electricity and ABSOLUTELY NO WAY DO I ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO FOLLOW MY LEAD; ELECTRICITY CAN PROVE FATAL. I isolated the workshop electric power supply at the consumer unit MCB but I never ever just throw a switch and start work without double and triple checking the electricity is indeed isolated; I removed the junction box cover and did a test with my multimeter (DMM) and I also switched on the lathe and fan heater so yes I could safely proceed.

    When I did this Graduate VFD installation I designed and made a metal enclosure adding an air filter; VFD's don't like dust. In order to keep it away from the lathe dust I mounted the VFD at the other side of the wall running all the cables through the wall; not the easiest of places to access but I also added remote controls so once set up I could operate the lathe without even seeing the VFD; one safety precaution I took was to add a large warning light to let me know when the VFD was powered up.

    The biggest job was gaining access as seen in the pictures below; I had timber stacked in the way also other items that needed clearing; eventually I had access to the VFD enclosure but no way did I want to spend time on my side trying to identify all the cable connections; the power was definitely isolated so I simply cut through all the cables using a junior hacksaw. Now I was able to remove the enclosure together with VFD; all the items and timber were neatly put back so this concluded work under the bungalow floor.

    In the workshop I could now remove the second steel enclosure this one with easy access it being located just above the Graduate. This second enclosure holds lots of electrical items like transformer and relay etc which I added to my design; when I did all this work the VFD manual was unhelpful so I had to experiment; there wasn't any additional information on the web so I was going it alone; a message to the VFD supplier requesting remote connections was ignored so I got stuck in and as I type I've forgotten most of what I did but I succeeded and anyone attempting such a lathe conversion to VFD can see the fun I had here;

    http://golbornevintageradio.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?tid=2861&page=19

    The initial set up was to power my Jubilee lathe but I then upgraded to the Graduate; what fun I had and masses of frustration as I worked my way through each problem but the Graduate has been running very well indeed since I completed the VFD installation.

    My plan now is to sort out the wiring allowing both lathes to run from one VFD but I need to sort out the wiring and switching etc. I did similar 17 years ago when I retired and connected a Startrite combination woodworking machine to run from a single rotary switch but on this machine I ran it's three 3 phase motors directly from our 240VAC supply using just a single pair of capacitors one a start capacitor the other a run capacitor and only a couple of years ago I finally sold the Startrite still in perfect working order.

    I'm self trained on electrics on a need to do basis but I've been doing this many years; I was taught as a 16 year old mechanical engineering apprentice how to connect big industrial 3 phase motors; at the time I was on a 6 month training course at Crigglestone Colliery and I had completed my course in record time so I used to wander over to the electrical apprentices looking over their shoulders; as I stated earlier though I certainly don't encourage novices to play around with electricity and I'm not going to add blow by blow how I wire up these two lathes but I will give an overview just to demonstrate what is involved. Today I've not done much other than remove electrical controls but now I need to spend time planning new circuits; I did ten years restoring Vintage Radios so electrical circuits aren't new to me. Please don't experiment with mains electricity; it could be the last thing you'll ever do. I won't give electrical information out behind the scenes either because I couldn't live with myself if someone was to be electrocuted.

    I've not seen my idea tried out previously so as with any such ideas we'll see what happens? I enjoy leaving my comfort zone and I can see a lot of frustration ahead. By the time I knocked off I felt quite warm; lots more work to follow.

    Kind regards, Colin.

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    Colin, Feb 15, 2018
    #5
  6. Colin

    marlingardener

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    Colin, you are right about certain woods being hazardous. For example, cedar shavings are toxic to poultry, so we use pine shavings in the nest boxes.
    I like to turn maple since it is hard, has little grain, and is a lovely wood when finished. Birch and poplar are good, also, but not as pretty a finished product.
    Believe me, I don't mess with electricity. We have a friend who is a licensed electrician, and for anything more complicated than changing a switch (yes, my talented husband can wire lamps and lights, and replace outlets and switches) we call him. He comes over, fixes whatever needs fixing and visits with us. His usual fee is a couple of loaves of homemade French bread, but if the job is more complicated, I throw in some sticky buns. We have offered and offered cash payment, but he is adamant--bread is all he wants.
     
    marlingardener, Feb 15, 2018
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  7. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    Thanks Marligardener; I'm pleased you like woodturning; it's a great hobby and can still be a full time interesting job. Cedar is indeed a timber to respect regarding personal health; lots of western red cedar is used for its outstanding durability;

    http://www.wood-database.com/western-red-cedar/

    You mentioning Maple takes me back almost forty years to when Bron and I married; we were like most young couples very hard up for money; at that time lots of mills were being demolished and we visited one where we bought lots of Maple flooring it being cheap. Back home I intended to make kitchen units from it with framed and panelled doors; I only had hand tools and I quickly found out the hard way just how hard Maple at over 100 years old can be; it was absolutely solid; my hand tools simply slid over it and my handsaw had trouble scratching it; I gave the lot to a neighbour as firewood and I bet it's still burning. :D

    I enjoyed watching a video on woodturning at 6:30 this morning demonstrating colouring turned work using all manner of colours and even scorching with a blowlamp; even plain timber like Maple can be made very attractive; have you ever tried "wire burning"? I like to add a couple of wire burned rings to tool handles etc and what a difference to the appearance this makes; please see the picture below of a few of my turning tools with wire burned rings; I turned the handles out of beech; a burning wire must never ever be wrapped around fingers or hands overwise there is a high risk of amputation; I always enjoy the smell after wire burning.

    There are many rules and regulations regarding working with electricity; all electrical work must be carried out "by a competent person". A while ago I joined an electrical forum and many members were quoting rules and regulations together with certificates of qualifications? A certificate to me means very little indeed; I have certificates where I've spent say a day on a course for "Word"; hanging this certificate in a nice frame in my workshop doesn't automatically make me an expert on "Word". I asked on the forum how many certificates Hertz; Marconi; Tesla would have displayed on their wall. I take electrical work very seriously indeed and if I need to know something I'll spend as much time on research as it takes; the web is full of excellent information; I never take a chance; only when I'm absolutely sure then I'll do something.

    I've done things electrical way outside general household electrics such as transformer winding; the pictures below show just how far I go whilst experimenting but as I keep stating this is what I do and I don't recommend others to follow me because this work is extremely dangerous. I wonder how many trained electricians can wind a 75KG transformer where the supply is single phase 240VAC and get three phase 415VAC (or indeed any voltage) out? I can and for many years I ran this big transformer powering my 3 phase machines from our single phase supply. This lathe work I'm now doing involves lots of electrical work as well as mechanical work as I modify the Lorch. I find such work most interesting and I take a lot of time to get everything just right; I'll connect the motor and VFD together with all remote controls with everything sitting on the bench; this will give ease of access and allow me to fully test before installing it all onto the lathe; if I run into problems I break of as needed to research; research costs nothing on the computer other than time but saves lots of pretty blue flashes and loud bangs as well as protecting myself from electrocution. The guy in America who invented the way to wind these big transformers to give 3 phase kindly credits me for my idea of using a wooden "shuttle" as seen in the picture; this was just one problem I found a perfect solution for and now it's in wide use. I'm not a trained electrician and I'm not smart either; I'm just interested and as such makes me a quick learner; I recently sold the big transformer to an electrical friend so I know it's not going to kill anyone otherwise I would have scrapped it; I no longer have the big 3 phase machinery and if anything untoward should happen to me Bron would have lots of problems so as I become older I need to think what I'll leave behind? Happy soul aren't I?

    The first two pictures are the big transformer on test and being wound using the shuttle.

    The middle two pictures show the other extreme in transformer winding; I used to make the former then use my AVO coil winder to wind on the winding wire. This small transformer is destined for a vintage radio it being an "Output" transformer.

    The last picture shows the woodturning tools with their beech handles nicely decorated with burned rings.

    Enough rambling for now but this is the sort of thing I do for hobbies.

    Kind regards, Colin.

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    Colin, Feb 16, 2018
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  8. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    The Poly-V pulley and bush arrived this morning so perhaps a few notes might be useful covering the motor I'm using and its installation.

    The motor is a Brook Motor manufactured here in Huddersfield the place I worked at for 24 years before I retired. I must be one of very few who have physically handled over a million motors personally; I worked at the Brook headquarters where it became the central despatch hub so I think it fair to say I can recognize and electric motor and I could tell the size of a motor from across the department by just looking at it.

    This motor is a Multi-mount; the feet can be attached in three 90 degree positions around the motor body allowing the terminal box to be used in four positions but also the terminal box entry can be rotated every 90 degrees; this multi-mount was a world leader in design and designed at Brooks. I've taken a few pictures to show this in better detail than text alone.

    This morning I wandered down to the workshop it being cold at only 3C and switched on the fan heater; as usual I was wrapped up like an Eskimo. Fitting motor pulleys is easy for me with my mechanical engineering training but I'd like to share a bit of information. The pulley is designed to accept a tapered bush this bush being secured to the pulley and motor shaft it being slotted by two socket grub screws. Motor shafts are machine slotted to accept a key; these bushes are also slotted for a key. With the key in position the pulley is placed on the shaft first followed by the bush; the screw holes are then aligned and with the bush in position the screws are fully tightened drawing the pulley and bush tightly together and also locking the bush tightly to the motor shaft. I like using this type of pulley and bush.

    Installing the pulley and bush is a straightforward job even a raw novice can do but what a raw novice generally doesn't know is how to remove one of these pulley/bush combinations and believe me this can prove virtually impossible with a very strong chance of causing damage to either or both pulley and motor; unscrewing and even removing both grub screws will not simply free the pulley/bush from the motor shaft; inserting long levers like big screwdrivers to force the pulley/bush from the shaft will most likely only tighten the bush grip more; please see pic 3 of the bush/pulley and note the bush actually has three holes; two with the grub screws but also a spare hole; in order to easily remove this type of pulley/bush remove both grub screws completely but then screw one of these grub screws into the third hole and tighten it; as if by magic the pulley and bush separate allowing both bush/pulley to be removed from the motor shaft. This sounds long winded but I would bet thousands have been caught out trying to force one of these bush/pulley combinations from a motor shaft; easy once known isn't it? Here's a video showing what I'm on about;



    With the pulley fully secured I then turned my attention to how I wanted to mount this motor; I didn't want the terminal box sitting on top of the motor with the cable entry facing the lathe front as seen in pic 4; I wanted the terminal box at the back of the motor so I removed the feet and changed their position giving what we called T Box Right. With the feet sorted then I removed the terminal box and turned it placing the cable entry facing the feet; once installed on the lathe the terminal box will be out of the way as will the cable; these motors are just brilliant giving such a huge choice of mounting positions; this particular motor was initially supplied with a "C" face flange for mounting it not having feet so now it's a flange and foot mounted motor but I'll only use the feet I added for mounting; a further mounting is a "D" flange. I was always proud of our product it being a world beater and in later years the "W" Series motor was developed this being "The World Series".

    Placing the motor as shown in pic7 saves a lot of struggling whilst installing the feet set screws; having the feet on top whilst trying to tighten the set screws means the motor wants to rotate; another tip that is useful; at work air sockets were used to add the set screws.

    It's imperative pulleys are correctly aligned and I take a lot of care about this; a straightedge as shown being used in pic 10 ensures this; aligning by sight isn't good enough.

    With the new pulley mounted on the motor shaft I could then position the motor on the lathe and determine new drive belt length this being 30" or near 760mm.

    Before knocking off I removed the VFD from its enclosure and detached all the cables so I can now play with everything in comfort on the bench.

    The new pulley; bush and drive belt cost a total £48 so it pays not to make a silly mistake.

    I find this type of work fascinating but then I'm more at home with machines than a spade.

    Kind regards, Colin.




    Lorch mod_001.JPG
    Pulley and bush as delivered. Pic 1.

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    Key located in shaft. Pic 2.


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    Pulley/bush fully installed ready for work. Pic 3.

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    Terminal box top showing cable entry; not wanted like this. Pic 4.

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    Pair of feet and set screws. Pic 5.

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    Showing one of the mounting points for adding feet. Pic 6.

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    Tightening the feet set screws the easy way without a fight. Pic 7.

    Lorch mod_008.JPG
    Showing the terminal box removed; it can be installed in four different positions allowing cable entry selection. Pic 8.

    Lorch mod_009.JPG
    Showing connected in "Delta". The links can be moved to give "Star" connection. Pic 9.

    Lorch mod_010.JPG

    Drive belt alignment is critical. Pic 10.
     
    Colin, Feb 16, 2018
    #8
  9. Colin

    MaryMary Quite Contrary

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    Colin, much of what you have written above leaves me baffled and bewildered. :confused:

    But I get this!! :D I have scorched wood using a heat gun!! (y) I had a lot of fun doing it, after all the boring speeches about how not to injure myself were done and over. (I happen to be a big fan of not injuring myself, so I think a simple, "These parts get hot, don't touch them," would have sufficed. :whistle:.)

    I made big and little burns, and dark and light burns. I got pretty good by the time I had worked my way around the wood. It was fun!! :cool:
     
    MaryMary, Feb 18, 2018
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  10. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    Thanks Mary; I too have been baffled and bewildered but this morning I finally sorted out the VFD connections and now the Lorch motor sings on the bench. :D:D:D

    I too am very careful regarding self preservation but unfortunately these days Mary unless safety labels aren't visible people self destruct? A day at the forge blacksmithing quickly shows what's hot and what's not hot.:)

    I've never done any wood scorching other than wire burning rings on the lathe but I admit I love the smell of burnt wood in my workshop. I've considered buying a Pyrography kit; here's a good kit;

    https://www.axminster.co.uk/antex-fire-writer-pyrography-kit-504560

    I'll note this kit for my next birthday in August; Bron will be happy to treat me to it.

    Back to the VFD; I've spent ages browsing both the web and watching YouTube videos on how to connect one of these VFD's. When I bought my VFD a few years ago initial connecting and setting parameters I found reasonably straightforward; only when I wanted to add remote controls for Start/Stop; Forward/Reverse and potentiometer speed control did I run into a wall headlong; I spent many; many frustrating hours trying to make sense of the official manual and at that time there were only others on the web with the same problems but not answers so I was on my own; fortunately I'm used to electrical work although I'm not a trained electrician.

    Eventually I did get around the problems; the Start/Stop really did throw me because I was using the original control buttons on the lathe; these buttons are non latching and after many hours of frustration I finally realized the buttons needed to be "Latching" latching is when a button is pressed the contatcs then lock "On" until the button is pressed again to make the contacts "Off". I eventually added a remote 12VDC power supply and 12VDC Relay; with these now installed the lathe worked from its original controls much to my delight. I made extensive notes about the VFD at the time but I never added the PSU and relay notes so this baffled me a while until it all came back to me.

    I had noted from the web/YouTube connection details so armed with this information I played around in the workshop yesterday afternoon with total failure; the manual supplied with the VFD is a real joy; in the text it gives connections D1-D2 & D3; this is fine but unfortunately these are nowhere to be seen on the actual VFD and having paid over £90 for this VFD I wasn't too happy about possibly destroying it. The information I copied from the computer obviously in my case didn't work so hours were lost; nothing for it but to have a look at my connections excluding the PSU & Relay?

    Here's mine sorted and working as of this morning;

    Potentiometer speed control; Pot is 10K single turn. The two outer terminals are connected one to Top row; ACM; the other to Bottom row 5V. The middle terminal (Wiper) to Bottom row V1. Please note 10V connection used on the web but 5V works on mine?

    I'm using a toggle latching switch for the Lorch to Start/Stop it the three terminal connections are;
    one end to top row Forward the other end to Reverse and the middle stop terminal to bottom row DCM.

    As usual once the problems are solved it looks oh so easy. Please note the small wooden control panel to secure the potentiometer and toggle switch; both these on low safe voltage but done like this to ensure nothing touches to create short circuits.

    The pictures show what fun I've been enjoying this morning. These are only notes and although they are accurate for my VFD/motor they are not intended as a guide for others to follow; no responsibility will be accepted by me; such work is done at own risk. Hopefully anyone though having similar VFD problems might find my notes useful; it works for me.

    I now have the VFD and motors running but I now need to hardwire both motors adding a rotary switch and remote controls to both lathes.

    I'm well pleased with this result and can now relax.

    As usual the warning; electricity can and will kill. I'm not encouraging anyone to copy what I do but for those familiar with such work this is standard practice.

    Kind regards, Colin.

    DSC00255.JPG
    Test set up on bench.

    DSC00257.JPG
    Remote power supply and relay with motor connection terminal block.

    DSC00258.JPG
    Motor under VFD control running at 3042 RPM.

    DSC00259.JPG
    Useless notes and manual.

    DSC00260.JPG

    Terminal connections; potentiometer cable to right three wires.
     
    Colin, Feb 18, 2018
    #10
  11. Colin

    MaryMary Quite Contrary

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    I once bought a curling iron, and the #7 caution was - "Do not use while sleeping." o_O And I saw a fan belt that came with the instruction, :eek: "Do not attempt to replace fan belt while the engine is running." :rolleyes:



    Your wish-list kit looks good!! (y) Have you ever thought about fractal wood burning? I recently watched a TV show, and a guy took apart a microwave and used the transformer to burn patterns in the wood. I've done some searching to learn what it was called, and I found you some pictures and a video. (You'll probably understand it a lot better than I do!! :ROFLMAO:.)




    [​IMG] . . [​IMG]

    [​IMG] . . [​IMG]







    :LOL: Now that I've written the post, it occurs to me that you probably already knew about this... but the pictures are pretty, and I like participating in your threads, even if I have no idea what you're saying half the time. :ROFLMAO: :)
     
    MaryMary, Feb 18, 2018
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  12. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    Excellent Mary. (y) Do not use a curling iron whilst sleeping and do not replace fan belt with engine running are brilliant examples of just how far health and safety has progressed. Perhaps shoes should now come with a safety label "Beware tripping hazard if laces are not securely tied"? I like the road signs; "Bend in road" and one seen near Todmorden was "Caution runners in road". What about "No road markings" I'm unsure if a blind person is still refused a driving licence.

    Thanks Mary for taking the time and trouble not to only reply but to add the delightful pictures and the YouTube video; you actually know more about this subject than I do Mary so you've taught me something new today; I've never previously heard of this type of wood burning patterns and you really are naughty firing up my imagination like this; Bron and I have never owned a microwave but I'm well aware of the dangers microwaves can impose and the high voltages used. I've watched the video in its entirety but also watched a few more such as these two;





    I bet if the guys came into contact with this high voltage it wouldn't half lift their caps? :D Fascinating stuff. (y)

    I've just come out of the workshop after raiding my drawers and under bungalow storage area for switches; I think I've got enough switches to sort these two lathes. I used to enjoy clambering around our local scrap yards before they ceased trading; I would take along a plastic bucket holding a selection of tools; on one occasion a huge electrical machine had just been brought in from our local hospital and I was allowed to attack it; I removed lots of expensive switches and contactors etc simply severing the cables and unscrewing the items; I used to be charged on weight alone so these items were literally dirt cheap. I remembered I had a heavy duty 3 phase 415V rotary switch and on/off switch from this particular machine and sure enough it was waiting for me to pull it from its shelf; I'll add a picture later because I didn't have my camera with me. This rotary switch hopefully will allow motor power switching between both lathes; I'm confident it will but won't be certain until I do the connections. If you understand half of what I'm on about Mary you're doing very well indeed because many times I make it up as I go along; I've connected up lots of motors so can virtually do this now with eyes closed and I don't need a connection diagram; the motor nameplate has the details I need.

    I've even wandered up the rear garden this afternoon looking at the daffodils which are in bud and a lonely crocus about to burst into flower; I planted a number of small shrubs and I'm pleased to see all but two are doing well; the two might pull through though with a bit of sunshine because they were both well rooted being potted; what a difference it it makes when I can potter around and quit moaning about our dire weather. A good day today.

    Kind regards, Colin.
     
    Colin, Feb 18, 2018
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  13. Colin

    MaryMary Quite Contrary

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    I'm not so sure they are as worried about our health and safety as they are about getting sued if anyone should hurt themselves as a of result their own stupidity. :cautious: :rolleyes:



    Yay!! Since you work with both wood and electricity, I'll consider that a double win! :joyful:

    I love that second video you posted. It looks like a fun hobby. (Wonder how long the don't hurt yourself speech would be for that ? :unsure:.)

    :ROFLMAO: Firing up your imagination!! (Was it electrifying ?) :hilarious: Oh, how I love a pun!!
     
    MaryMary, Feb 19, 2018
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  14. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    Thanks Mary; the world is mad these days and people are no longer responsible for their own actions in fact the way it's going I believe common sense is increasingly rare; do people need telling if they poke a finger into say a circular saw whilst the saw is under power that they will get injured? Whilst I was working at Brook Motors I was informed a number of big electric motors had been delivered to an Australian company; these motors didn't have bearings installed? During holiday periods in order to keep Brooks manufacturing levels at maximum the company employed temporary labour; the temp installing the bearings had run out of bearings so simply installed both end covers on the motors which then progressed through the production lines and final inspection? One day at work I had the maintenance engineering team installing a crane over a conveyor this being the out conveyor from a big shrink wrapping machine; the crane gantry was installed but a long heavy angle iron brace needed securing to both the gantry and wrapper; I was watching with other higher ranking staff including the boss of the guys doing the work; the brace was at the top of the gantry hence a ladder was required in order to reach it; the guy installing the brace had one end on top of the gantry to support it but the other end needed support until the brace was welded into position; the brace was rested on a ladder rung and the welding commenced until I stopped the guy welding; everyone nearby thought it very funny that the guy welding had rested the brace on the second ladder rung hence had he been allowed to complete the weld the ladder would have been a permanent addition; I didn't think it funny because his boss was watching him do this. We all make mistakes but we aren't all paid a lot of money in high positions where even basic mistakes aren't recognized? :(

    Definitely a double win Mary; well done; I started work 55 years ago and I still have a great deal to learn. You get a star from me and go to the top of the class. (y) This old dog can be taught new tricks.

    I can imagine the health and safety exec closing an entire company if the company allowed an employee to play around with high voltages so casually as seen in the videos. It's definitely dangerous. Electrifying; excellent. :D

    I'm not in a hurry to complete this project; I'm still gathering components/items I need but I think I have most of them to hand; motor wiring I've done for many years but adding remote controls to a VFD is rather more difficult especially when marked connections on the VFD don't match up with the connections in the manual but I'm now on top; however I want to experiment so please regard the following as untried and could be changed as work progresses; I'm just thinking aloud whilst attempting something new to me. The remote controls are all on low voltage so are safe enough; the supply and motor connections though are highly dangerous and could prove fatal.

    I've put together a rough diagram using "Paint" of my proposed connections; I already know the Graduate motor works fine with these remote controls but I'm unsure until I try regarding the Lorch remote controls and this will be both interesting and fun; I don't need reversing on the Lorch so a simple latching switch should be OK wired for Forward; the speed control potentiometer though I'm unsure about because I've not tried connecting potentiometers like this so its a case of trying the idea out; I've installed many potentiometers into vintage radios so these aren't new to me. As I say I'm experimenting and making this up as I go along so please don't be surprised if I fall on my face; I learn by my mistakes and I don't mind making mistakes in front of the world at least I'm enjoying myself pottering around in the workshop; once again electrical safety is paramount.

    Both my lathe motors are identical making this experiment a lot easier but if I succeed then perhaps other motor combinations can be used as long as the VFD is fully set up regarding each motor parameters; I need to try this set up first? I'm using a 2.2KW VFD to power a 1.1KW motor but the VFD doesn't object as long as the parameters are set for the motor.

    If it was warm; dry and sunny I could really enjoy this project but as usual today it's a black hole and my personal cloud Blackie is still putting down rain; will it ever dry outside; I think not so I'm going to get wet again as I head down to the workshop.

    Kind regards, Colin.

    VFD lathe circuits 18 Feb 2018.jpg
     
    Colin, Feb 19, 2018
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  15. Colin

    MaryMary Quite Contrary

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    Common sense is a thing of the past, I'm afraid. :(

    I have a friend that does construction work. They mostly pour concrete, but they do some other things, too. They were running a jackhammer, and three of the guys had forgotten their earplugs. So they made their own. :eek: They squirted expanding insulation foam into their ears!! My friend got the day off, because three guys were sent to the hospital that day.

    I work in a retail store. We had a $4 mascara marked 10% off. A woman asked me how much was 10%. I told her, "It means you have to take off ten cents for every dollar." She just stared at me. I thought maybe she was thinking. Maybe the stare meant that she was doing the math. No, she was waiting. I had to tell her. "It's 40 cents." She said, "Oh! Ok." ... Problem solved, I went back to work. Then... she said, "Wait... I have to take off the 40 cents, or it costs 40 cents?" :jawdrop:

    We had a "Clearance event" at work last weekend. I always go into these with a certain amount of dread. Simple things I think they ought to know, they just don't. People refuse to do their own thinking.

    Everything with an orange sticker is 50% off. That's half. That should be easy. A woman held up an item and asked, how much is this? I explained that everything with an orange sticker is half off. She looked at the sticker, looked at me, and said, "It's marked ten dollars." Then she just stared at me. (It's that expectant stare that bothers me the most.) So I tried to encourage her to do her own thinking. "If it is marked ten dollars, then you would pay half of ten dollars." And she just continued to stare at me!! I had to tell her that five is half of ten. smack.gif
     
    MaryMary, Feb 19, 2018
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  16. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    Thanks Mary; we at least sing from the same hymn sheet. :)(y) There are so many people these days who need watering not feeding. One thing I have problems with is handing over small change at a supermarket checkout; the checkout assistant at our local "Home Bargains" store is always short of small change and I usually have a pocketful; what I do now is to pull out a handful of small change and place it in both my open hands saying please help yourself; it works a treat and I usually remark it's good to get rid of the scrap iron from my pocket . :)

    I've enjoyed myself in the workshop today; this morning I started off sorting out switches to use; the industrial Modello 12A 550VAC rotary switch tormented me for quite a while until I decided to leave it alone; this switch has 12 connections 6 of these were strapped to form 3 pair. I was using my DMM (Digital multimeter) but couldn't get any sense out of the connections.

    I then decided to sort out the Graduate lathe controls but obviously the on-off-on toggle switch and Potentiometer wouldn't simply fit into the existing holes these holes now being much too big and I'm not one to bodge a job so I looked around my stock of sheet metal and found a suitable lump of aluminium; I used the original mounting plate to draw around transferring the shape onto the aluminium which I then cut by hand in the vice using my hack saw. A few minutes spent on the 4" belt sander and I had a blank mounting plate of the correct size; mounting holes were marked at each corner and drilled. The plate looked rather scratched and bland so I gave it a facelift firstly using fine abrasive paper followed by lots of rubbing with Solvol Autosol now it looked much better. The switch and potentiometer bosses were measured then suitable sized holes were drilled in the plate to accept them; The black dial was added and the potentiometer was secured to the plate ensuring the marker on the knob aligned then the switch was also added; I've fitted this control plate to the Graduate just to check it fits regarding mounting holes and it does; I'll be soldering the control wires shortly. This amount of detail takes time but is always worth it in the finished result; I'm pleased by how it looks.

    This afternoon I brought the wayward 3 phase rotary switch up to my desk with the DMM and I've just been playing around with it in comfort and having found out what connects to what I've drawn a rough connection diagram; I've wired these switches but a long time ago and I'm aware the connections can be baffling so it was a case of patience and taking notes; the DMM didn't always give a reading to complicate matters possibly through poor switch contacts?

    I'm enjoying pottering around and it's been a lot warmer today but still wet as usual. The rotary switch connections remain untested but DMM continuity readings are as shown.

    The original push button Start/Stop is now replaced by the toggle switch which gives start/stop but also forward and reverse; the potentiometer is now the speed control; I'm making good steady progress and double checking everything because electricity is involved and I don't guess.

    Kind regards, Colin.


    Lathe rotary switch connections..jpg DSC00262.JPG DSC00264.JPG
     
    Colin, Feb 19, 2018
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  17. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    One of the best ways I have of solving problems is to awake at around 3am with the problem buzzing around inside my head. I've used resistors for years but connecting both these motor speed controls to one VFD is new to me in fact connecting both motors to a single VFD is new to me but it's fun. In simple terms a potentiometer is a variable resistor and the following might be a bit heavy going for a gardening forum but all information is useful and I learn a lot by experimenting.

    The voltages used in the control circuits is low enough to be considered safe so I don't mind being open about what I'm doing. Connecting two 10K potentiometers either in parallel or series is easy enough but unfortunately I doubt it's going to prove an easy solution regarding controlling the speed of one motor at a time. I'm using two 10K potentiometers so the resistances are straightforward and only the connections need sorting out but how to connect?

    The VFD powering a single motor requires the 10K potentiometer this giving full sweep between 0 and 10K Ohms. Now adding a second 10K potentiometer changes this because the values change; at the moment I'm unsure of how the different connections will work; if I turn one potentiometer to 0 on the first motor will the second potentiometer control the speed on the second motor and how will resistances be changed? As I say though this is fun for me and rather than give myself an headache I can very easily experiment with the items on the bench but possibly this is becoming too complicated so `I'm looking at types of switches to isolate the potentiometers saving lots of hassle; usually with a bit of thought there are a number of ways to resolve a problem? Heres some useful information;

    http://www.brighthubengineering.com...explored-construction-and-working-principles/

    https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/res_4.html

    https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/res_5.html

    https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/how-to-switch-between-two-potentiometers.54263/

    Strange isn't it how something which at first glance appears simple but then quickly becomes complicated. I'm not an expert on electrics or electronics but I am nosy and like to learn; I could spend hours reading through the information on the web but many times I find it quicker to get into the workshop and experiment hands on; it's very easy to destroy electronic equipment with a single wrong connection but I'm aware of this; it's also easy to destroy electronic components just by handling them due to "static" but potentiometers are not sensitive to static.

    Ideally I didn't want to add additional switches but I'm considering using a wafer type switch just to switch speed control potentiometers between the two motors and I think this will prove the easiest and most reliable solution?

    Whilst restoring vintage radios I had lots of electronic components but the components I retained are now scattered around; I've just had a look in our front bedroom wardrobes but unfortunately couldn't find any wafer switches; I used to have many different types of these switches so I'll search the workshop. I'm not the sharpest tool in the kit but what I don't know I can learn and this is what all this is about; the new Poly-V drive belt arrived this morning so I can now play with both mechanical and electrical aspects of this project; I just love it. Here's a couple of pictures showing how hobbies can invade wardrobes.

    Got to go dinners ready; after dinner I'm heading into the workshop; now this is what I call being retired and it's even dry and sunny which is very rare. :):):)

    Kind regards, Colin.

    DSC00265.JPG DSC00266.JPG
     
    Colin, Feb 20, 2018
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  18. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    I don't know how I cope with all this excitement; it hasn't rained today (so far) and the sun has been shining; I took Bron to Meadowhall Shopping Centre this morning to spoil her as much as I could then this afternoon I've enjoyed a couple of happy hours in the workshop.

    The most important part of this project was sorting out how to arrange the new Poly-V drive; it's all come together successfully this afternoon; I stripped out the lathe headstock mandrel and back gear allowing the new Poly-V endless belt to be installed then reassembled the headstock and back gear; this is an easy job for me and I lightly loaded the end thrust bearing on the mandrel to eliminate any end float at the chuck. I took a great deal of time and trouble to be gentle and to keep everything very clean; I then went around with the oil can lubricating moving parts. Very little force is needed otherwise a lot of expensive damage can be done to the lathe.

    Now for the real test; I placed the motor on it's mounting board and am very pleased indeed that the belt is the correct length and it will run without fouling anything. With the belt loosely installed I can now measure to make a new better fitting motor wooden mounting but won't install the motor proper until I've sorted out it's wiring; it's a lot easier to install the wiring with the motor on the bench where access is excellent than to secure the motor to the lathe then worry about the wiring?

    The small reflective square to the motor pulley is the pick up for my digital rev counter; when I powered this motor up on the bench I ran it up to 3,000 rpm and thought that's a lot faster than the VFD states so I brought the VFD speed down to read 500 rpm and took a reading with the digital rev counter to find I was correct in that the motor was spinning at 885 rpm so if the VFD speed is linear then it's 3,000 rpm spins the motor at 5,310 rpm? I'm sure I can adjust the VFD parameters to bring the motor speed down; a motor speed of 3,000 rpm on the lathes is plenty fast enough although on test years ago I did run a motor up to 11,000 rpm on the bench using this VFD. What fun I have.

    The pictures below show the original flat belt drive and the new Poly-V belt drive; the new pulley on the motor is the correct Poly-V pulley but I'm running the original stepped crowned pulley in the headstock I'm sure the new Poly-V belt will drive better than the old style flat leather belts. The motor and mounting etc could benefit from a decent paint job to match the lathe.

    I can now relax and concentrate on the electrics; I've included a picture of the 550V rotary switch this has 12 terminals also a picture of a few assorted switches; I never throw switches away unless they are faulty and even then I strip out any small screws retaining these for future use; I also strip out anything useful on anything to be thrown away. :)

    Kind regards, Colin.

    DSC00267.JPG
    I never throw switches away unless the switch is faulty.

    DSC00268.JPG
    Original flat leather belt drive to stepped crowned mandrel pulley.

    DSC00269.JPG
    New endless Poly-V drive belt being installed.

    DSC00270.JPG
    New motor mounting board to be made now final measurements can be taken.

    DSC00271.JPG
    Looking more like it.

    DSC00274.JPG

    550VAC rotary switch salvaged from scrapyard many years ago now to be of use.
     

    Attached Files:

    Colin, Feb 20, 2018
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  19. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi.

    High Danger regarding previous posts on burning wood patterns using high voltage.

    My chum David jogged my memory of a story he posted to me regarding experimental use of very high voltages and it makes gruesome reading. I think considering this it to be prudent that I only post what I've done regarding the electrical work on my two lathes rather than how I did the work; many novices read these threads/posts and I don't want to encourage anyone to play around with lethal electricity. Sorry if I'm a spoilsport but better safe than sorry. (y)

    http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/new...le-burning-wood-in-workshop-inquest-told.html

    Kind regards, Colin.
     
    Colin, Feb 20, 2018
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  20. Colin

    Colin Retired.

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    Hi,

    I've made more progress in the workshop today. I've started to install the VFD making an enclosure for it to keep the dust off it also I've done some of the wiring but this is mains 240V so I won't go into detail but shortly I hope to add notes on the control wiring because this is safe low voltage and actually the most difficult part of the wiring to sort out. I did have to bring a short length of old heavy cable up into the bungalow to ask Bron to kindly identify the green so I could use the correct colour for Earthing; modern cable is easy because the earth wire is either bare or has striped insulation which I can easily identify. On this old cable I thought the lightest colour to be green but Bron says its grey; why do I have to be so hopelessly colour blind.

    The pictures show work up to date but if I can get into the workshop for a few hours tomorrow without interruptions then I can move this job on a bit further; I'm not under any pressure but it will be nice to have both lathes fully sorted out. The weather forecasters are having a laugh saying arctic weather is on the way; I won't notice any difference; it was -3.5C when I was out early this morning.

    Kind regards, Colin.

    DSC00276.JPG

    DSC00277.JPG

    DSC00275.JPG
     
    Colin, Feb 23, 2018
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