Does no dig gardening really work?

[Meadowlark]

How has it worked out for you?

I see a lot of folks saying it works...but what does "works" actually mean?

Does it outproduce veggies grown in containers?

Does it outproduce traditional methods of till, cover crop, chop and drop, green manure application, rotation, etc.?

I intend to answer these questions based on my own internally originated data.

Two identical 10 ft rows and three identical containers will be used to grow identical veggies under identical conditions and production results compared.

Row 1 will be a recently harvested row that started out as "No N-P-K required" before crop harvest and receives nothing but 1 inch of compost on top of cardboard. No weeds removed; no soil disturbed. No synthetic fertilizers will be used. No insecticides/fungicides.

Row 2 will also be a recently harvested row that also started out as "No N-P-K required" before crop harvest and located right next to Row 1 and will have two rounds of chop and drop cow peas ( as time permits), one application of green manure cow peas, 4-6 inches of cow manure tilled into the soil, and all plants mulched with compost and all weeds removed during the growing cycle. No synthetic fertilizers will be used. No insecticides/fungicides.

The three containers to be used include the "headfullofbees" container recently refurbished with traditional methods and two other HK containers starting with "No N-P-K required" garden soil. No synthetic fertilizers will be used. No insecticides/fungicides.

Identical fall veggies will be planted in each and all production will be measured and recorded.

The goal is to determine for myself what "works" means in terms of no dig. This experiment will run until about November when harvesting should be complete.

I'm completely open to vegetable suggestions and/or any other suggestions anyone would like to see included in this little experiment.

I probably won't plant the selected veggies until about Aug. 15 and suggestions will be accepted up to that time...so let the suggestions begin.

 

[Oliver Buckle]

Two identical 10 ft rows and three identical containers will be used to grow identical veggies under identical conditions and production results compared.

Make that "As near identical as I can get', even then they will be in different places. Dad was quite meticulous about such things, he did a test with different garlics, one bought in a nursery, one from the supermarket, and one a French friend gave him. He not only prepared his patch to get as near the same conditions all over as he could, he then planted the bulbs one of each in turn in rows, instead of a block of each, I wouldn't have thought of that.
I applaud the intention of getting some positive data, but I worry a bit. What works in this year's weather might not be the best for next for example, or what works better in Scotland may not in Georgia, for all sorts of reasons, there are so many variables I fear it might not be possible to say anything definitively without many more people in many more places following the same plan over several seasons and then collating the data. I know I can do what seems to be the same thing year after year and get different results, which are also different from my friends.

 

[Meadowlark]

Make that "As near identical as I can get',

Right you are, sir.

These claims that 1 inch of compost per year and some cardboard are all that is needed, no digging, no weeding, nothing but 1 inch of compost per year and cardboard stretch credulity to the point that I have to try it myself and find out what "works" really means.

Who knows, maybe I'll completely change my gardening techniques. I'm open minded certainly. I learned a lot in the HK container experiment and have incorporated those into my regular gardening routines. Maybe No Dig will be the same.

I am NOT inclined to blindly accept internet musings on gardening without verifying it myself. I absolutely encourage others to do the same. In fact, would love if some others joined this like they did in the HK container experiment where not one person indicated results markedly different from mine.

 

[Susan BBPM]

Make that "As near identical as I can get', even then they will be in different places. Dad was quite meticulous about such things, he did a test with different garlics, one bought in a nursery, one from the supermarket, and one a French friend gave him. He not only prepared his patch to get as near the same conditions all over as he could, he then planted the bulbs one of each in turn in rows, instead of a block of each, I wouldn't have thought of that.
I applaud the intention of getting some positive data, but I worry a bit. What works in this year's weather might not be the best for next for example, or what works better in Scotland may not in Georgia, for all sorts of reasons, there are so many variables I fear it might not be possible to say anything definitively without many more people in many more places following the same plan over several seasons and then collating the data. I know I can do what seems to be the same thing year after year and get different results, which are also different from my friends.

The UK government are advising farmers to adopt no till or minimum till methods as part of their regenerative farming initiative.

Use min-till or no-till farming - Farming

Updates from Defra's Farming and Countryside Programme

defrafarming.blog.gov.uk

The Royal Horticultural Society have a no dig demonstration garden :

"This is a no dig allotment garden inspired by Charles Dowding’s 40 years of experience pioneering and developing no-dig techniques in four different market gardens and Stephanie Hafferty’s decades of organic allotment growing and running no-dig kitchen gardens.

The garden demonstrates how to grow abundant food year round without digging or disturbing the soil. An annual mulch of compost feeds the soil and soil life for a year, increasing soil biology and enhancing soil fertility"

The RHS No Dig Allotment Demonstration Garden

See more about the RHS No-Dig Allotment Demonstration Garden, a Feature Garden at RHS Hampton Court Palace Garden Festival 2021.

www.rhs.org.uk

No dig approaches are well tested in the UK - to the point where farmers are incentivized to use them.

However, the implementation detail may need to vary for those in different climates, and depending upon the size of your garden or farm. And this is why you really need to study a technique in detail before you can perform any kind of reliable test. As UK pioneer Charles Dowding explains - initial attempts adopted from the US caused major slug problems over here. So he had to tweak and adapt to find the best way to do things.

"When I started no dig on 1.5 acres / 6000m2 in 1982, I followed methods developed by Ruth Stout in the US, Connecticut to be precise.

What I didn’t realise was that her climate, drier than here and with extremes of temperature, did not allow slugs to become a problem. I copied her mulching method of old hay on top of the beds – then suffered a load of slugs.

Hence my use since then of compost mostly, as opposed to undecomposed organic matter. It’s the best approach in this damp climate. "

 

[Meadowlark]

The UK government are advising farmers to adopt no till or minimum till methods as part of their regenerative farming initiative.

What exactly do they consider "minimum till method"?

I till when applying green manure crops to the soil. That normally is once or twice per year. Usually that's it. I wonder how they support regenerative farming without turning in green manure crops? It is an integral part of what I do, and my belief is that it may well be the single most important technique I use in terms of soil health.

 

[redback]

What exactly do they consider "minimum till method"?

I till when applying green manure crops to the soil. That normally is once or twice per year. Usually that's it. I wonder how they support regenerative farming without turning in green manure crops? It is an integral part of what I do, and my belief is that it may well be the single most important technique I use in terms of soil health.

Your Row 2 has a much larger input of effort, machinery and fertilizer than Row 1. I think we should both sit down and listen to Charles Downing to find out the actual method he is employing. No-till does not mean No-weed. He puts compost on every year, but he takes out the previous crop (weeds and all) and then weeds the new crop as necessary - I think. Putting an inch of compost on top of cardboard is not going to work in my opinion. Also, his soil has been continuously topped with compost for twenty years. Weeding can be done with two fingers in such soil. His argument is that such soil is alive with worms that have not been killed by tilling and so is deeply 'tilled' by nature - I think.

 

[Meadowlark]

I follow no dig. So whenever anyone talks about digging in this, that and the other I take responsibility for knowing when to ignore advice - their advice would be VERY bad for me. People don't test soil as a rule in the no-dig community. The whole approach is differrent - you don't need to know what the exact break down of your soil is because the prescriptiion is ALWAYS the same (I test mine out of curiosity rather than to work out what to put in it). A 1 inch layer of compost is applied to the soild every December - nothing more added.

This is what I am following for row 1...1 inch layer of compost...nothing more added.

However, the implementation detail may need to vary for those in different climates, and depending upon the size of your garden or farm.

Please advise what I should do different in a 10 ft row here.

 

[Meadowlark]

Your Row 2 has a much larger input of effort, machinery and fertilizer than Row 1. I think we should both sit down and listen to Charles Downing to find out the actual method he is employing. No-till does not mean No-weed. He puts compost on every year, but he takes out the previous crop (weeds and all) and then weeds the new crop as necessary - I think. Putting an inch of compost on top of cardboard is not going to work in my opinion. Also, his soil has been continuously topped with compost for twenty years. Weeding can be done with two fingers in such soil. His argument is that such soil is alive with worms that have not been killed by tilling and so is deeply 'tilled' by nature - I think.

Of course it does. Chop and drop, green manure, 4-6 inches of compost, cover crop all on row 2.

I didn't choose the no dig rules. I'm just following the rules set by others:

I follow no dig. So whenever anyone talks about digging in this, that and the other I take responsibility for knowing when to ignore advice - their advice would be VERY bad for me. People don't test soil as a rule in the no-dig community. The whole approach is differrent - you don't need to know what the exact break down of your soil is because the prescriptiion is ALWAYS the same (I test mine out of curiosity rather than to work out what to put in it). A 1 inch layer of compost is applied to the soild every December - nothing more added.

I might add my soil in which this is being tested has had the addition of compost for over 4 DECADES!...and significantly more than 1 inch per year!

If you think the no dig rules allow weeding, then I'm certainly willing to do that...but how do you weed without disturbing the soil some?

 

[redback]

Regen. ag. is trying to develop methods that plant cash crops in cover crops using a furrow and double disc method without baring the soil. Currently most are turning-in their green manure like you. There are lots of experiments in the organic farming.

 

[redback]

Of course it does. Chop and drop, green manure, 4-6 inches of compost, cover crop all on row 2.

I didn't choose the no dig rules. I'm just following the rules set by others:


I might add my soil in which this is being tested has had the addition of compost for over 4 DECADES!...and significantly more than 1 inch per year!

If you think the no dig rules allow weeding, then I'm certainly willing to do that...but how do you weed without disturbing the soil some?

I think Susan is wrong about the annual application of cardboard. Get the weeds while they're young and mulch. We all need to sit down with a coffee and watch uTube before this experiment proceeds. IMO. Dial up Charles Downing - he has short planting demonstrations that I have watched before.

 

[Meadowlark]

I'm just asking for the rules of no dig. No dig as presented by Susan is a significant step backwards for me in terms of what I do to my soil every year. Hence, I'm only willing to use 10 ft of row.

I think Susan is wrong about the annual application of cardboard. Get the weeds while they're young and mulch. We all need to sit down with a coffee and watch uTube before this experiment proceeds. IMO. Dial up Charles Downing - he has short planting demonstrations that I have watched before.

That is exactly what was stated to me...cardboard right on top of weeds/grass whatever. 1 inch of compost, ONLY.

I don't have many weeds but will have some by the time this row is planted following these rules. No mulch...that was eliminated by "nothing more added". 1 inch of compost, that's it as I understand it.

Seriously, I'm just trying to follow the rules as she stated them. As I said, it represents a significant step backwards for me in how I normally treat my soils.

 

[Meadowlark]

Previously posted in this thread:

Yes, it works. ...
I put down the cardboard and compost onto grass/weeds. ...So from weedy lawn to flowers and veg in just one month! ...

Just trying to play by the rules and understand what "works" actually means here.

 

[redback]

She didn't write the rules. View Charles Dowding "no-dig explained in five minutes" on uTube and you will find -
- cardboard is only used on the first application starting out. After that a bit of weeding is necessary.
- one inch compost topping looks more like three inches in this video.

Your experiment has several problems -
- cost is a factor and Row 2 is lot more expensive and energy consuming than Row 1.
- you are not sympathetic of, or knowledgeable enough to do no-dig.
- you are a large-scale operation and no-dig is essentially a backyard operation.

You are being pedantic when you call weeding 'tilling'. At some stage you will have to deep farrow
to get rid of 'hard pan' caused by tilling.

 

[Meadowlark]

Your experiment has several problems -
1- cost is a factor and Row 2 is lot more expensive and energy consuming than Row 1.
2- you are not sympathetic of, or knowledgeable enough to do no-dig.
3- you are a large-scale operation and no-dig is essentially a backyard operation.

4- You are being pedantic when you call weeding 'tilling'. At some stage you will have to deep farrow
to get rid of 'hard pan' caused by tilling.

1) Is it more expensive in terms of cost/product? And since when did cost become a factor in this budding experiment on techniques? It's not on my list.

2) LOL, I was told how simple and easy it is. Just tell me the rules, that's enough for me.
I didn't realize that I had to be converted to a no dig guru to be able to do no dig, LOL. They said how simple it is.

3) A container I can pick up easily is large-scale? Ok I'm using three of them in this trial so does that make it large scale? My three containers would easily fit in any backyard, anywhere. In fact, would fit on most patios.

4) LOL, 43 years of growing spectacular veggies and I have a looming mysterious deep farrow process ahead of me.... hard pan caused by tilling. Sounds ominous. When is this supposed to happen? Will I have warning?

I'm not what you would call young, and I suspect if that ominous happening hasn't happed in 43 years of gardening this way, then I'm probably going to miss it.

So, someone tell me the rules and this old washed-up pedantic gardener will execute them precisely and faithfully.

She didn't write the rules. View Charles Dowding "no-dig explained in five minutes" on uTube and you will find -
- cardboard is only used on the first application starting out. After that a bit of weeding is necessary.
- one inch compost topping looks more like three inches in this video.

cardboard is only used on the first application starting out.

This is my "first application starting out" of no dig. Would you prefer I started it in my hay field or pasture? I can do that easily. I can find 10 ft which is completely covered in thick grass, never been tilled, never had any chemicals. So, you want me to move the row to completely "virgin" ground? I can do that and will if it helps the experiment. Instead of starting in "No N-P-K required" soil we can start in fallow soil which has only grass/weeds growing. I'll lay that out in the morning...but I must warn you one piece of cardboard and 1 inch of compost is not going to phase thick Bahia grass...but I can do that. I'll post a picture tomorrow of the new 10 ft row...and I think you will agree that it needs more than "a bit of weeding". Getting water to it is going to be a big problem, however.

one inch compost topping looks more like three inches in this video.

She said "one inch" need I repeat that?

If its three inches, tell me. I just want to know the rules and I will execute them precisely.

 

[redback]

You asked for autumn (fall) planting options. I suggest carrots, celery and onions. Just be careful of too much nitrogen. Celery should be blanched. Onions can remain as permanent. In fact, with no-dig you can add marigolds, radish and beetroot, amaranth, and fennel in the same bed for the advantages of multi-cropping. I'm showing that no-dig is a lot more flexible than any broad acre applications and can be highly customized to the whim of the gardener in a way farmers cannot.