To fertilize or not

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GFTL

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It is more important to know what your plants need than what your soil needs. Your soil does need, calcium and organic material for certain plants. It depends on what type soil you have. Some people have solid rock or gravel.

I lived in Phoenix AZ area for several years soil there has almost NO food value for plants. For many 1000s of years before dams were built on the rivers the AZ valley flooded every year that is why the valley is flat sand. That is why cactus grows so slow and many other plants will not grow. If you water and fertilize cactus and desert plants they will grow 6 ft taller in 1 year.

Corn and Greens needs, Nitrogen 46-0-0 fertilizer.
Bean, peppers, melons, tomatoes, garlic, do good with 15-15-15 fertilizer.
Potatoes, carrots like 5-20-20 fertilizer.
Onions need 21-0-0 for 6 weeks then 5-20-20 for 6 weeks.
Sweet potatoes, okra, blackberries, do good with 1-1-1 fertilizer 1 time a year.

When I moved to AZ neighbors came to tell me, if you want grass to grow you must water your yard 2 hours every morning as the sun is coming up and you can not grow vegetables in AZ they won't grow. After living in AZ for about 1 year neighbors wanted to know why I have the nicest grass in the neighborhood and my irrigation is never on? When I told them I water grass 10 minutes every night 9 pm after dark they refused to believe that. When I showed neighbors my vegetable garden they refused to believe what they see. People think because they use to plant a garden back east in May they should plant AZ garden May also, wrong answer. You plant AZ winter garden Nov 1st it is 65° F and sunny all winter. You plant AZ summer garden March 10th, melons, okra, sweet potatoes love hot blistering 114° sun.

I learned in college biology class plants have 2 growing modes, green leaves soak up sunlight all day then after dark plants switch to growing mode and plants grow larger all night in the dark.
You are correct that you need to know what your plants need but it is equally important to know what your soil has in it for nutrients. This will keep from overfertilizing.
 

smitty55

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Synthetic ‘can’, ‘may’, ‘can’. Nothing about ‘will definitely’, ‘without exception’. If used with moderation, based on testing, and in combination with added organic matter, synthetic fertilizers are safe and effective.

Hydroponic vegetable production proves that plants will produce flowers and vegetables just as effectively as growing in soil. This is a plant, some water, light, and synthetic nutrients. No organic matter, bacteria, mycorrhizae, green manure; just water, light, nutrients, and a plant.
You can't compare hydroponics to growing in soil as there is basically no microbiology involved in hydroponics compared to the soil food web. It's also well known that plants grown in soil have a much nutrient density, even more so when grown organically and at home compared to industrial farming. Regardless I will never believe that plants grown with chemical fertilizers that destroy the soil food web are as good for me compared to natural fertilizers.
 

Meadowlark

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... Regardless I will never believe that plants grown with chemical fertilizers that destroy the soil food web are as good for me compared to natural fertilizers.
Likewise for those saying, "Nitrogen is nitrogen no matter where it comes from. "

It is so easy to test this yourself...and I don't understand why so many rely on the words of the chemical proponents rather than actually hands on test it out. The nutrient density scores don't lie.
 

GFTL

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Likewise for those saying, "Nitrogen is nitrogen no matter where it comes from. "

It is so easy to test this yourself...and I don't understand why so many rely on the words of the chemical proponents rather than actually hands on test it out. The nutrient density scores don't lie.
I wish I had the tenacity to follow through on tests. I like the concept of just adding mulch and compose and forgoing fertilizing all together but when you're told that "in early stages of growth you need more nitrogen and to back off on N when fruiting" how can you do that without adding fast acting chemical fertilizer? Organic fertilizer reacts slowly so it's harder to turn on and off. If I were going to test something I would plant in an established garden with and without additional fertilizer (organic and chemical) and see the results.
 

Meadowlark

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... "in early stages of growth you need more nitrogen and to back off on N when fruiting" how can you do that without adding fast acting chemical fertilizer? ...
Easy, very easy. My garden soil comes in at about 35-38 ppm of total nitrogen at planting. That is KEY, as it is optimal or above at the start...nothing needs to be added certainly not fast acting synthetics. The plants will use what they need.

After harvest, depending on the specific veggie grown in that soil, it is 5-12 ppm of total nitrogen. Nutrient dense soils naturally provide that profile through the stages of plant growth.

Test it sometime...see for yourself...and while you are at it, note the taste of the veggies grown in nutrient dense soil vs synthetic fertilizer soil and see if you find what I do that veggies grown nutrient dense soil are far superior in taste.
 

gary350

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You are correct that you need to know what your plants need but it is equally important to know what your soil has in it for nutrients. This will keep from overfertilizing.

Soil test here in TN is $100 and it takes 6 months to get the results. I can test PH with PH paper. Our average rain fall is 4 ft per year Dec to May all that water washes away fertilizer and calcium. Fertilizer cost less than a soil test. It is not easy to over dose plants with too much P & K. Urea needs calcium to activate slow release N. Nitrogen does not last very long in soil our rain washes it away. Urea is no good if soil has no calcium. I mix calcium with all my fertilizer so plants aways get a little calcium when I fertilize. After 50 years of garden in TN I learned what works with no soil test. Years ago I did soil tests. June to Oct garden here is hot dry 100° and 1" or less rain every month. My water meter bill shows 100 gallons of city water cost 50 cents. When our rain stops then I have to water the entire garden every day for 3 to 4 months. 1 hour of drip line irrigation is working good for me after dark. Fertilizer in picture cost me $67 three years ago and I have enough left for this year.

Fertilizer.JPG
 
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Meadowlark

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Soil test here in TN is $100 and it takes 6 months to get the results.
That is completely ridiculous.

For $30, anywhere in USA, anyone can send a soil sample to MySoil who will post the test results in your own secure "box" on the 'net usually within two weeks of sending in the sample...sometimes even less time is required. They test for wide range of nutrients and provide a nutrient density score which is valuable to me.

I'm sure there are many others who offer similar services.
 

GFTL

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That is completely ridiculous.

For $30, anywhere in USA, anyone can send a soil sample to MySoil who will post the test results in your own secure "box" on the 'net usually within two weeks of sending in the sample...sometimes even less time is required. They test for wide range of nutrients and provide a nutrient density score which is valuable to me.

I'm sure there are many others who offer similar services.
Check out Simply Soil Testing. Low cost and fast. https://www.simplysoiltesting.com/
 

Meadowlark

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Check out Simply Soil Testing. Low cost and fast. https://www.simplysoiltesting.com/
About the same as MySoil...$32 for complete test...$16 for basic but you don't get organic matter results. and micronutrients results. The extra info is well worth it to me. Shows the difference in using synthetic fertilizers.

5-day turnaround.

$100 and 6 months is absurd...so ridiculous it is hardly believable.
 

Meadowlark

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MySoil says, temporary closed until April 1.
I just ordered two kits from them no more than 10 minutes ago.

MySoil

Order #​

Thank you for your purchase!​

We're getting your order ready to be shipped. We will notify you when it has been sent.

Where are you getting this information that it is closed?

Where are you getting this information that soil tests are $100 and 6 months in Tenn.?

@YumYum tells me that Farmers COOP in Tenn. where you buy fertilizer provides a free basic soil test.

What gives with all the misinformation?
 

Heirloom farmer1969

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Here in Kentucky, every county has a agriculture & resources agent that you can take your samples to and they send it to the university of Kentucky. It's free and anywhere between 10 to 14 days before it comes back.
I figured most all states have this .
 

YumYum

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Likewise for those saying, "Nitrogen is nitrogen no matter where it comes from. "

It is so easy to test this yourself...and I don't understand why so many rely on the words of the chemical proponents rather than actually hands on test it out. The nutrient density scores don't lie.
Well I guess I'm about to be the unpopular one here but I am one who thinks plants don't know the difference between a nitrate molecule from an organic source or an inorganic source. They will take either up and use it the same way because they are the same molecule. Lab tests can not tell the difference either even if they test for organic matter.

I don't think organic and inorganic sources of nitrogen are the same however. They both have advantages and disadvantages in which you should know the pros and cons before using either one. I don't advocate for either-or and I'm not afraid to say I use either one because I use whichever for whatever suits my needs at the time. Right now I have a huge pile of compost and chicken manure and a bag or two of synthetic fertilizer that will be dealt out this year. Right now my gardens pH is riding high and is high in phosphorus so I'm not going to be using any chicken manure in it this year. I guess I could go buy some blood meal to use but I already have other things I can use.

I think the main thing people should know is that using synthetics instantly feed the plant but it does not feed the soil microbes and that causes the soil microbes to die back. The ratio of the nutrients and what plant available nutrients the fertilizer gives is what makes a nutrient dense plant along with optimal conditions, not which type of fertilizer is applied. I don't believe synthetic fertilizers are bad for you but I do believe other chemicals used in farming can such as growing round up resistant wheat varieties for them to spray and for you to eat.

On the other hand, using organics feed slower by feeding the soil microbes and they take time to eat and break down the nutrients into plant available forms. Another variable to consider is the more the microbes thrive, the faster the organic can be broken down into nutrients and in a higher plant available quantity so by using the exact same amount of manure in someone elses soil can yield different results (ie: previous synthetic user vs 100% organic user).
 

Meadowlark

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Excellent post @YumYum. We have probably beaten this one to death :) but I appreciate your contribution to the discussion and find it definitive.

Your words "synthetics instantly feed the plant but it does not feed the soil microbes and that causes the soil microbes to die back." to me confirms there are differences between adding nitrogen through green matter using organics vs synthetic.

Also, "organics feed slower by feeding the soil microbes and they take time to eat and break down the nutrients into plant available forms" confirms there are differences between adding nitrogen through green matter using organics vs synthetics.

Finally, your point "the more the microbes thrive, the faster the organic can be broken down into nutrients and in a higher plant available quantity" slams the door on those who say that adding nitrogen from green manure using organics is the same as adding nitrogen via synthetics.

Clearly it isn't the same. Very different, critically different.
 

Oliver Buckle

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I get a bit over £100 a week in pension, around $125, I can get organics free, synthetics cost money (Even cheap ones Gary). No contest.
 
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