River
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I make a lot of compost and I still add fertilizer. The compost helps the soil with aeration and retains moisture. It also feeds the plants. Although it doesn’t have too much nitrogen.
To fertilize or not
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Thanks, I will definitely get on to this for sure. I appreciate you sharing the information, it's great to see so many people in the world willing to share and support each other.
GFTL
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You are correct but I think what Gary 350 was saying is that it doesn't matter to the plants where they get their nutrients. I don't think anyone ever said that synthetic fertilizers were a good soil builder but they are a way to get nutrients to the plants faster. Byrnesy said in the original post that he does all the good things to build a good soil web but was asking what additional fertilizer he might want to use.
Oliver Buckle
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I am not sure that chemical fertilizers actually kill microorganisms, just don't give them what they need to live.
Two things, there are more than simply the NP and K needed for healthy and vigorous plants, and soil biodiversity provides them. The other I can't remember the detail of, but NPK from different sources are not the same, same number of electrons and everything, but someone did experiments which demonstrated that the plants react differently to them, even though the experimenter couldn't tell why. I wish I could remember the details, or who it was, but I am pretty sure it was someone reputable, I soon get scornful and angry with the weirdos with no qualification who offer theories without evidence and wouldn't have taken it onboard without some reputable source like a university backing it.
Two things, there are more than simply the NP and K needed for healthy and vigorous plants, and soil biodiversity provides them. The other I can't remember the detail of, but NPK from different sources are not the same, same number of electrons and everything, but someone did experiments which demonstrated that the plants react differently to them, even though the experimenter couldn't tell why. I wish I could remember the details, or who it was, but I am pretty sure it was someone reputable, I soon get scornful and angry with the weirdos with no qualification who offer theories without evidence and wouldn't have taken it onboard without some reputable source like a university backing it.
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LOL, this is very easy to prove to yourself but it does require a soil test(s) that measures nutrient density.
1) run a baseline soil test which provides the N,P,K required and the nutrient density score.
2) add the recommended N,P,K via synthetic fertilizer and test again. You should see "no N,P,K required" but also no improvement (and often will see lowered) in nutrient density score as the test result.
3) on the baseline soil, add composted cow manure, chop and drop legume, and green manure via legume in the amounts you know from experience that will produce a "No N,P,K required" soil test.
4) test that soil and you should have "No N, P, K required" result along with a nutrient density score of over 90%.
It isn't rocket science...as they say...and I am reputable.
smitty55
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Compost is not considered a fertilizer at all, it is however a great soil amendment that improves soil tilth with organic matter and adds tons of needed microorganisms that improve nutrient take up by plant roots.
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It depends entirely on what is in the compost.
The compost I make has nitrogen levels at or greater than the optimal ppm levels recommended by my soil test lab, i.e. >34 ppm. All without any synthetic fertilizers added.
That is why my soil tests have for 5 and hopefully now 6 consecutive years tested out with the recommendation "No N, P, K required". Soil Tests do not lie.
I make a couple of different composts, each test out total nitrogen > 34 ppm. One type is composted cow manure. I make it from feeding the cattle on my ranch in winter. I feed them hay which is grown on my ranch free of any chemicals. The cows eat the hay in winter, stomp on it, and add fecal matter and urine to the mix. I bull doze up the mix periodically into compost mounds containing hay, fecal matter, urine, and some topsoil. This heats up to well over 135 deg F and is turned regularly which kills pathogens and weed seeds. Internal temps are estimated at or over 180 deg F. It steams with incredible heat while composting. After about three or four months it is ready to apply to the garden...weed free and pathogen free...and "No N, P, K required"...and no synthetic fertilizers or chemicals added.
The other compost I make consists of a blend of the above cow compost with fresh cut Sunn Hemp. The Sunn Hemp (fresh cut) is available about the time my cow manure compost is ready for use. Interestingly, the Sunn Hemp is grown in previously composted cow manure applied to my garden soil which is "No N, P, K required".
I make it in big cattle tubs adding a layer of cow compost, then a layer of green Sunn Hemp, then another layer of cow compost, etc. This is ready for use in about another two months. I call it Super Duper Compost...and it is more powerful than anything I can buy anywhere.
It does make a difference to your soil where the N, P, and K and other vital nutrients comes from. Don't let anyone tell you differently!!
Cow manure compost in the making...
Super Duper Compost in the making...
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gary350
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Your weather has a lot to do with what your garden soil and plants need. Here in middle TN we have 3 ft of rain every spring Feb to May rain washes away calcium and fertilizer. My plants have BER if they don't get calcium once a week. June to Oct my garden is desert with less than 1" of rain per month. Or 100° f hot weather June to Sept destroys compose in our soil. It takes time to learn what your garden soil needs and what each plant needs and what you can grow and what you can't grow.
cpp gardener
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Test the soil, test the soil, test the soil. If you don't know what's there, you can't tell what you need to add or what is in excess already.
In general, Nitrogen leaches and is used in greater amounts than other nutrients. Adding green matter, from whatever source, increases nitrogen levels. Adding synthetic fertilizer with Nitrogen does the same thing.
Phosphorus doesn't leach much at all and can bind up other nutrients if in high amounts in the soil. Add only if tests indicate a deficiency. Any source will do.
Potassium leaches more than Phosphorus but slower than Nitrogen. Any source will do.
Gary has a point that plants use nutrients in the chemical form they use it in regardless of the original source. Adding organic matter feeds the soil microbiome which releases nutrients and changes soil structure. Over-application of synthetic fertilizers will affect the soil microbiome and decrease its beneficial activities.
Nutrient levels change constantly depending on plant use and weather conditions. 'No N-P-K required' isn't a fixed condition and requires continuous additions to maintain those levels. Synthetic or 'organic' sources are equally valid, bearing in mind that overapplication from either source can affect the soil negatively. It's harder to do with organic sources, however.
In general, Nitrogen leaches and is used in greater amounts than other nutrients. Adding green matter, from whatever source, increases nitrogen levels. Adding synthetic fertilizer with Nitrogen does the same thing.
Phosphorus doesn't leach much at all and can bind up other nutrients if in high amounts in the soil. Add only if tests indicate a deficiency. Any source will do.
Potassium leaches more than Phosphorus but slower than Nitrogen. Any source will do.
Gary has a point that plants use nutrients in the chemical form they use it in regardless of the original source. Adding organic matter feeds the soil microbiome which releases nutrients and changes soil structure. Over-application of synthetic fertilizers will affect the soil microbiome and decrease its beneficial activities.
Nutrient levels change constantly depending on plant use and weather conditions. 'No N-P-K required' isn't a fixed condition and requires continuous additions to maintain those levels. Synthetic or 'organic' sources are equally valid, bearing in mind that overapplication from either source can affect the soil negatively. It's harder to do with organic sources, however.
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No, it isn't the same. Vast differences, important differences, critical differences, IMO..
Green manures decaying into the soil provide a continuous supply of nitrogen through the growing season. Very little leaches out. Synthetic has to be frequently reapplied.
Don't believe me...then maybe AI.
"Green Matter Nitrogen:
- Source: Comes from organic materials like grass clippings, leaves, compost, and manure.
- Release: Slow release. Microorganisms need to break down the organic matter first, making nitrogen available over time.
- Soil Health: Improves soil structure, water retention, and microbial activity. Boosts long-term soil fertility.
- Environmental Impact: Generally lower. Recycling organic waste reduces landfill use and greenhouse gas emissions.
Synthetic Fertilizer Nitrogen:
- Source: Manufactured through industrial processes, often from natural gas.
- Release: Fast release. Provides a quick nitrogen boost but can lead to rapid growth and nutrient leaching.
- Soil Health: Can deplete soil organic matter over time if overused. May affect soil microorganisms negatively.
- Environmental Impact: Higher. Production requires significant energy, and excess use can lead to water pollution through runoff and leaching.
No one, certainly not myself, ever claimed otherwise. However, science has proven beyond doubt that organic amendments are far longer lasting than synthetic fertilizers, far superior to building nutrient density in soils, and far superior to the environment.
Organic sources are so far more forgiving than synthetic sources that it isn't even worth arguing about.
smitty55
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That all makes sense but the only issue I would have with that is the temps you mention. The 135°+ are excellent for killing pathogens but there is a point where when temps surpass 160° that beneficial organisms get killed off and you lose one of the main benefits of compost. I know you said those 180° are estimated but if you go by this article from Rodale you should be turning your pile before temps exceed that 160 mark which makes perfect sense. Check it out
Turning Compost by Temperature - Rodale Institute
Composting research at Rodale Institute is geared towards developing methods that will produce quality compost and clarify some of the best practices
rodaleinstitute.org
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In a pile 10 + ft high and even wider, how do they measure the internal temps?
When I said 180 deg F, it was an estimate...could be 160 deg. could be something else. Admittedly, I don't know how to measure internally beyond the reach of my long temp gauge.
When I said 180 deg F, it was an estimate...could be 160 deg. could be something else. Admittedly, I don't know how to measure internally beyond the reach of my long temp gauge.
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gary350
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It is more important to know what your plants need than what your soil needs. Your soil does need, calcium and organic material for certain plants. It depends on what type soil you have. Some people have solid rock or gravel.
I lived in Phoenix AZ area for several years soil there has almost NO food value for plants. For many 1000s of years before dams were built on the rivers the AZ valley flooded every year that is why the valley is flat sand. That is why cactus grows so slow and many other plants will not grow. If you water and fertilize cactus and desert plants they will grow 6 ft taller in 1 year.
Corn and Greens needs, Nitrogen 46-0-0 fertilizer.
Bean, peppers, melons, tomatoes, garlic, do good with 15-15-15 fertilizer.
Potatoes, carrots like 5-20-20 fertilizer.
Onions need 21-0-0 for 6 weeks then 5-20-20 for 6 weeks.
Sweet potatoes, okra, blackberries, do good with 1-1-1 fertilizer 1 time a year.
When I moved to AZ neighbors came to tell me, if you want grass to grow you must water your yard 2 hours every morning as the sun is coming up and you can not grow vegetables in AZ they won't grow. After living in AZ for about 1 year neighbors wanted to know why I have the nicest grass in the neighborhood and my irrigation is never on? When I told them I water grass 10 minutes every night 9 pm after dark they refused to believe that. When I showed neighbors my vegetable garden they refused to believe what they see. People think because they use to plant a garden back east in May they should plant AZ garden May also, wrong answer. You plant AZ winter garden Nov 1st it is 65° F and sunny all winter. You plant AZ summer garden March 10th, melons, okra, sweet potatoes love hot blistering 114° sun.
I learned in college biology class plants have 2 growing modes, green leaves soak up sunlight all day then after dark plants switch to growing mode and plants grow larger all night in the dark.
I lived in Phoenix AZ area for several years soil there has almost NO food value for plants. For many 1000s of years before dams were built on the rivers the AZ valley flooded every year that is why the valley is flat sand. That is why cactus grows so slow and many other plants will not grow. If you water and fertilize cactus and desert plants they will grow 6 ft taller in 1 year.
Corn and Greens needs, Nitrogen 46-0-0 fertilizer.
Bean, peppers, melons, tomatoes, garlic, do good with 15-15-15 fertilizer.
Potatoes, carrots like 5-20-20 fertilizer.
Onions need 21-0-0 for 6 weeks then 5-20-20 for 6 weeks.
Sweet potatoes, okra, blackberries, do good with 1-1-1 fertilizer 1 time a year.
When I moved to AZ neighbors came to tell me, if you want grass to grow you must water your yard 2 hours every morning as the sun is coming up and you can not grow vegetables in AZ they won't grow. After living in AZ for about 1 year neighbors wanted to know why I have the nicest grass in the neighborhood and my irrigation is never on? When I told them I water grass 10 minutes every night 9 pm after dark they refused to believe that. When I showed neighbors my vegetable garden they refused to believe what they see. People think because they use to plant a garden back east in May they should plant AZ garden May also, wrong answer. You plant AZ winter garden Nov 1st it is 65° F and sunny all winter. You plant AZ summer garden March 10th, melons, okra, sweet potatoes love hot blistering 114° sun.
I learned in college biology class plants have 2 growing modes, green leaves soak up sunlight all day then after dark plants switch to growing mode and plants grow larger all night in the dark.
cpp gardener
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Synthetic ‘can’, ‘may’, ‘can’. Nothing about ‘will definitely’, ‘without exception’. If used with moderation, based on testing, and in combination with added organic matter, synthetic fertilizers are safe and effective.
Hydroponic vegetable production proves that plants will produce flowers and vegetables just as effectively as growing in soil. This is a plant, some water, light, and synthetic nutrients. No organic matter, bacteria, mycorrhizae, green manure; just water, light, nutrients, and a plant.
Hydroponic vegetable production proves that plants will produce flowers and vegetables just as effectively as growing in soil. This is a plant, some water, light, and synthetic nutrients. No organic matter, bacteria, mycorrhizae, green manure; just water, light, nutrients, and a plant.
Oliver Buckle
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Meadowlark, you should run a copper pipe through your pile and heat your water
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