Garden flooding

[Chuck]

(@Chuck and @DirtMechanic)

Just out of curiosity, what would happen if he were to add a ton more organic matter to that part of the yard? Something to help absorb the water? I recognize it would take a while to decompose and become dirt, so it may not be the answer he's looking for...but what if?

The thread was started in November, which is prime leaf collection time. (I see at least a few trees in the yard.) Also, the city will send big vacuum trucks to sweep leaves if you rake them to the curb. People are also asked to put them in biodegradable bags at the curb. He should be able to call "311" (City services and City information) and see if he can pick up leaves somewhere.

After every big storm in Columbus, the news talks about all the fallen trees that need cleaned up. He could call 311 and ask if the city/county road crews would be willing to deliver a load of wood chips. And if not, individual tree trimming companies would probably be willing to deliver for the cost of the gas it takes to get there. (Saves them from having to pay to dump them somewhere. )

Sheal states that it is in the Columbus area - amongst farmland - so bales of straw should be cheap and easy to find. Straw absorbs a lot of water!! With the wood chips to weight it down, the straw would not be likely to float away.

He should be able to get cardboard simply by visiting a store. If he put it on the bottom, and layered the other stuff on top, it wouldn't look like "trash in the yard."

With enough organic matter in that yard, wouldn't it eventually be able to keep up with the water? Especially if he were to also plant a few more water-loving plants? (I'm very fond of pussy willows, they are one of the first plants in the spring that you can cut for a vase. The one we had in the yard at my childhood home would have silvery grey catkins, followed by pretty yellow flowers, both attractive. You just can't plant them close to water lines, they'll send their roots down and break the pipes to steal your water! )

What if?

It takes roughly 500 years to make 1 inch of soil. This is soil, not soil organic matter. You could add 10 tons of organic matter to the area and when it decomposed you should be able to measure it but it would be a minuscule amount. The following link more or less explains it.

Agronomic Crop Soil Fertility | Penn State Extension

Learn about agronomic crop soil nutrition, fertility, and management. Get advice on preventing compaction, levels of nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, and more.

extension.psu.edu

 

[MaryMary]

Hmm... I get the gist of the article, but I don't really understand it. So, more questions!! You know I am full of questions!

(Chuck, I know it's hard to read tone into text, please know I am not trying to argue!

Teach me!)

Ok, I know I used the phrase "turn into dirt," - what I meant was "to compost." Wouldn't it turn into compost eventually? Wouldn't it absorb water? (What would happen to the water?) Would the composted material then just float on the puddle?

Couldn't he turn it into one big composting pile of absorbent material? It might not be especially good for growing grass, but if that's the way the yard looks much of the time, he's probably not mowing there anyway...

 

[roadrunner]

For some reason this is an issue (soil science) I have great interest in and feel like responding, but will first read Chuck's link. I'm still a little fuzzy on the time it takes for soil to be formed and I'm not unfamiliar with the supposed long periods of time it's suppose to take. I've heard even longer time frames of up to 1,000 years, depending on the climate. I'm not clear on what part of the soil these references are referring to, that takes so long.

One example is my soil here in Florida, which has a parent material of sand, which is just ground up forms of rocks. Are they saying that's the part of the soil that takes that long to form?

BTW, like MaryMary, I'm also not arguing the facts, just trying to understand something that's always very much interested me about gardening...

 

[Chuck]

Hmm... I get the gist of the article, but I don't really understand it. So, more questions!! You know I am full of questions!

(Chuck, I know it's hard to read tone into text, please know I am not trying to argue! View attachment 49238Teach me!)

Ok, I know I used the phrase "turn into dirt," - what I meant was "to compost." Wouldn't it turn into compost eventually? Wouldn't it absorb water? (What would happen to the water?) Would the composted material then just float on the puddle?

Couldn't he turn it into one big composting pile of absorbent material? It might not be especially good for growing grass, but if that's the way the yard looks much of the time, he's probably not mowing there anyway...

If you raise the level of the flooded area to be above the surrounding area with compost the entire raised area will become a quagmire of saturated particles. Compost does not adhere to itself like soil does. Soil will become mud, compost something altogether different. The property of the OP is surrounded by land of a higher elevation so he will have to either raise his entire property, house and all, to a level higher than his neighbors OR devise a way to drain away the excess water. It will be impossible to add enough organic mater as to absorb all of the rain water. IMO the only feasible thing to do is to build a berm and swale around his property so that when it rains the berm will be high enough and the swale at a steep enough angle to allow all of the water up hill from him to drain somewhere else. He could also fill in the flooded area with soil but all that would do is make the water continue to go downhill. Planting grass at the proper time of year and filling in the low area with topsoil is a way to stop the standing water but that does not stop the area from flooding. A berm and swale will.

For some reason this is an issue (soil science) I have great interest in and feel like responding, but will first read Chuck's link. I'm still a little fuzzy on the time it takes for soil to be formed and I'm not unfamiliar with the supposed long periods of time it's suppose to take. I've heard even longer time frames of up to 1,000 years, depending on the climate. I'm not clear on what part of the soil these references are referring to, that takes so long.

One example is my soil here in Florida, which has a parent material of sand, which is just ground up forms of rocks. Are they saying that's the part of the soil that takes that long to form?

BTW, like MaryMary, I'm also not arguing the facts, just trying to understand something that's always very much interested me about gardening...

The 500 year time is an average. Some soils take less, some take more time. The following link is the easiest I have found to understand soil formation.

Soil Formation | NRCS Washington

 

[roadrunner]

I've read both links by Chuck and I totally agree with both of them; however, it occurred to me that maybe we gardeners don't plant in soil, as strictly defined by soil scientists. So maybe in one sense, it's kind of a non-issue.

Kind of crazy, I know, but when you read about soils and their formation a lot of emphasis is placed on horizons or layers. In my case any layer of soil formation I had before I started gardening was totally disrupted by me. I totally demolished it by tilling over it with the goal of killing off the Bermuda grass. I then mulched over the totally mixed up horizontal layers.

However, the plants don't seem to care, one of the first plants I inadvertently grew were potatoes in my compost pile of leaves and kitchen waste...that was definitely not soil. Actually you couldn't even call it dirt (btw, the best definition I've heard of dirt is just displaced soil). In other words, when we dig/till up our garden areas, aren't we just left with dirt?

 

[MaryMary]

Well, that answers that question. (Thank you, Chuck! )

The neighbor's yard is higher than ours, and we have a couple low spots in the back yard. Once the ground is saturated, we get a puddle. If it rains more, one big puddle and two small ones. More rain makes one huge puddle. Even more rain, and we get a swamp, with 2-3" of water standing on the sidewalk. (I've seen my entire back yard with 3" of standing water.) I can't see us putting a berm and swale between the shed and the sidewalk.

My boyfriend hooks up a pump with garden hoses, runs the hose through the garage, and pumps the water out into the back alley. It's amusing to watch him wage war with the elements, and I know he's enjoying himself. He'll look out the window and yell, "The rain is winning!!" And then he goes out and hooks up the big pump!!

I kept thinking maybe there was a better way. I guess there's not.

 

[Chuck]

Well, that answers that question. (Thank you, Chuck! )

The neighbor's yard is higher than ours, and we have a couple low spots in the back yard. Once the ground is saturated, we get a puddle. If it rains more, one big puddle and two small ones. More rain makes one huge puddle. Even more rain, and we get a swamp, with 2-3" of water standing on the sidewalk. (I've seen my entire back yard with 3" of standing water.) I can't see us putting a berm and swale between the shed and the sidewalk.

My boyfriend hooks up a pump with garden hoses, runs the hose through the garage, and pumps the water out into the back alley. It's amusing to watch him wage war with the elements, and I know he's enjoying himself. He'll look out the window and yell, "The rain is winning!!" And then he goes out and hooks up the big pump!!

I kept thinking maybe there was a better way. I guess there's not.

Without some pictures it's difficult ascertain just what is going on but it seems that your problem is a little different than the OP's. If you have a grassy lawn and the area isn't too large applying a few layers of sand mixed with compost is a good solution. Mix the sand to about 75% sand and 25% compost and apply about 1/2" over the low areas. Do this a few times allowing the grass to grow up through the sand and in a few applications it's no longer a puddle during a rain. During a heavy rain where you have a lot of standing water just hope you don't have heavy rains or raise the sidewalk.

 

[MaryMary]

Pictures would help you see my problem, but I can tell already that there's no real answer for me. If I raise the topsoil and plant grass, it'll just flood the sidewalk. If I were buying this house, I might be more willing to fix it. As it is, we're renting.

I figured Sheal already had her answer, and I'd just tack my questions on. (I was really hoping I could throw enough stuff in there, and it might work as a giant sponge.)

I'll keep shaking my head and giggling at him - shaking his fist at the sky, charging out to do battle!

(I've laughed myself silly at him before, it's not a new thing, he laughs at himself.) Seriously, he will line up five gallon buckets, see how many he can fill in a minute, and then come and proudly tell me how many hundreds of gallons are being pumped out in an hour. I've watched him dig a hole in the pouring rain so he can break out the submersible pump.

As my mother used to say... well, at least it keeps him out of the pool halls.

 

[Sheal]

Thank you all for the interest you've taken in my son's flooding problems. I have a couple more images but they don't really show the extent of the problem. What you can see is how the farmland slopes down towards his garden on the second image.

At this time of year it becomes a skating rink. The fence running left to right separates the front and back gardens.

My son has been distracted by something more important recently so I haven't had a chance for further chat about this problem. I seem to remember him speaking of a ditch on the field outside his garden which I suspect isn't being maintained. If that's the case then I think he needs to speak to the farmer. I also think that he should gather some legal advice on the situation.

Chuck, I think your suggestion of a berm and swale is my son's only choice for solving the problem, if the ditch I've spoken of doesn't exist of course. The problem he faces with that are the two dogs he owns. He may have to put up another fence on the garden side to keep them away from it.

 

[Chuck]

Thank you all for the interest you've taken in my son's flooding problems. I have a couple more images but they don't really show the extent of the problem. What you can see is how the farmland slopes down towards his garden on the second image.

At this time of year it becomes a skating rink. The fence running left to right separates the front and back gardens.
View attachment 49438


View attachment 49439

My son has been distracted by something more important recently so I haven't had a chance for further chat about this problem. I seem to remember him speaking of a ditch on the field outside his garden which I suspect isn't being maintained. If that's the case then I think he needs to speak to the farmer. I also think that he should gather some legal advice on the situation.

Chuck, I think your suggestion of a berm and swale is my son's only choice for solving the problem, if the ditch I've spoken of doesn't exist of course. The problem he faces with that are the two dogs he owns. He may have to put up another fence on the garden side to keep them away from it.

About the dogs. Have your son check out a product called decomposed granite. Its permeable and would work fine on the top of a B&S. It sounds as though there may already be a B&S installed when the house was built. They wouldn't have had a ditch dug for no reason. It's probably just silted in.

 

[Sheal]

Thanks @Chuck.

Have your son check out a product called decomposed granite. Its permeable and would work fine on the top of a B&S.

You say on top, do you mean fill the dip with this please?

It sounds as though there may already be a B&S installed when the house was built. They wouldn't have had a ditch dug for no reason. It's probably just silted in.

I'm not disputing what you say but I can't see that the farmer would dig out a B&S on his own land for a neighbouring property unless he was legally bound to do it. I don't think building regulations would stretch to that. The farm would have been there a lot longer than my son's home, so surely it would have been a requirement by the builders to install it on my son's plot. During the time they were working there they must have seen the ground flooding.

 

[Chuck]

Thanks @Chuck.



You say on top, do you mean fill the dip with this please?



I'm not disputing what you say but I can't see that the farmer would dig out a B&S on his own land for a neighbouring property unless he was legally bound to do it. I don't think building regulations would stretch to that. The farm would have been there a lot longer than my son's home, so surely it would have been a requirement by the builders to install it on my son's plot. During the time they were working there they must have seen the ground flooding.

Many people here use decomposed granite as walkways. Grass and weeds will be severely limited where it is used. On a B&S you would dig your swale about 3 inches deeper, then lay and pack the granite in the extra 3 inches.
The ditch you spoke of may be what is left of the original B&S and over the years has washed and silted in and in fact may actually be a portion of your son's land. Or there may have been an agreement with the farm owner. Or any multitude of reasons why it was built, if it actually exists. From the pictures it looks as if the land your son's house is on and his neighbors land was once part of the farm but since the area floods is about useless for farming so the farmer sold off that portion of his land. Irregardless of all this it would be a fairly simple job of removing the back fence, building the B&S and then replacing the fence with longer fence posts or tee-posts. From the last picture is seems as if the land is sloping from left to right, if so the neighbors to the right must have the same problem only worse. It might be a good idea to talk to them because the larger the job the cheaper per foot it will be.

 

[Sheal]

I'm in conversation with my son right now Chuck, so will come back to your reply later.

 

[Sheal]

Hi Chuck,

Ah right, I'm with you now on the granite. I've found out the ditch doesn't exist, so it's back to the berm and swale idea. In the last picture we're looking at the farmland which sit's to the right of his property if we were looking from the front garden. He only has neighbours on the left side, so the flooding is his problem only. The flooding has got worse and it now covers half the length of the right side of his garden and half of the frontage as well, stopping at the side of his drive. The total area of his plot is an acre so that's quite a bit of water.

He's lived there three years but I've asked him to speak to the real estate agent to see if she can come up with anything as they are now friends. Also to speak to the farmer and see if he will help out in some way, but to be honest I think he's on his own with this problem.

 

[Chuck]

Hi Chuck,

Ah right, I'm with you now on the granite. I've found out the ditch doesn't exist, so it's back to the berm and swale idea. In the last picture we're looking at the farmland which sit's to the right of his property if we were looking from the front garden. He only has neighbours on the left side, so the flooding is his problem only. The flooding has got worse and it now covers half the length of the right side of his garden and half of the frontage as well, stopping at the side of his drive. The total area of his plot is an acre so that's quite a bit of water.

He's lived there three years but I've asked him to speak to the real estate agent to see if she can come up with anything as they are now friends. Also to speak to the farmer and see if he will help out in some way, but to be honest I think he's on his own with this problem.

I guess the cheapest thing he could do then is to get a dumptruck load or two of TOPSOIL and make a berm to just keep the water from coming in from the farmers field. As soon as the berm is made he should lay turf to keep the soil from washing away. Growing grass from seed will take too long. I would guess that a tapered berm of 6 feet in width would be sufficient. I have no way of knowing how high without being there and measuring it.