How to Cheaply Fill Large Containers for Growing Squash and Beans?

[headfullofbees]

I have outstanding garden soil...IMO as good as there exists anywhere. It is sandy loam built up over many years with special cover crops. I strive for and generally receive soil test results which say, "No N-P-K required" and a nutrient density score well in excess of 90%. I do not use any synthetic fertilizers, any non-organic pesticides, or any fungicides in my garden soil.

It has taken me many years to achieve this garden soil. It would be foolish indeed for me to procure commercial raised bed mix when my soil is far superior to anything on the commercial market. Better still, my garden soil is completely sustainable for the foreseeable future.

I try to leave the soil better than I find it every year, even though most of the land I grow on isn't my own.

 

[Susan BBPM]

I have outstanding garden soil...IMO as good as there exists anywhere. It is sandy loam built up over many years with special cover crops. I strive for and generally receive soil test results which say, "No N-P-K required" and a nutrient density score well in excess of 90%. I do not use any synthetic fertilizers, any non-organic pesticides, or any fungicides in my garden soil.

It has taken me many years to achieve this garden soil. It would be foolish indeed for me to procure commercial raised bed mix when my soil is far superior to anything on the commercial market. Better still, my garden soil is completely sustainable for the foreseeable future.

Don't take this the wrong way - I'm not challenging your claim. This is about me trying to understand all the pieces of the puzzle....

My understanding (and experience) is that soil works in the ground because the soil life (worms etc) work away constantly allowing air to get in (among other things). However, in a container you can't rely on that soil-life - a container is too small and varies in temperature and humidity levels too rapidly. It's not a nice environment for soil life so you need a very different kind of growing medium. In pots, you're typically just wanting a medium that keeps moisture levels correct, allows drainage, allows air pockets etc. You can't rely on the soil life to produce the food - you need to feed the plants with fertilizers (natural or otherwise).

The above seems to be the accepted wisdom (in the UK climate at least). This makes container growing expensive. So a big challenge for me is to get my containers working more like my beds - so sustainable.

Now, I am 100% open to the idea that the accepted wisdom is paid for by manufacturers of potting soil and fertilizer. And maybe there's a difference in hotter, drier countries?

 

[headfullofbees]

Since you did get such good results, meadowlark, I wonder if you'd just recapitulate your experiences of the season:
the sizes & volumes & depth of your hugelkultur containers
How much of this and hoe much of that, & at what depths, & what you found reacted best to the set up?

 

[Meadowlark]

Since you did get such good results, meadowlark, I wonder if you'd just recapitulate your experiences of the season:
the sizes & volumes & depth of your hugelkultur containers

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An experiment in Hugelkulture in containers​

Thank you for your interest. Several of your questions are addressed in the main thread referenced above. Also, I'll be posting a full update on the experiment results after first frost expected in early November including the 30 something new veggies being tested this fall.

For now, take a look at the interesting results I'm seeing for leafy veggies. I have been totally surprised by these. The HK container leafy veggies are outproducing the in-garden counterparts by an incredible amount. The data is in ounces and planting dates also shown.

Type	HK Pro​	Gar Pro​	Ratio​
Malabar spinach 8-8	14.1​	2.8​	5.04​
collards 9-2	7.1​	4.9​	1.45​
Swiss Chard 8-20	4.8​	2.5​	1.92​
Turnips 8-21	0.6​	0.4​	1.50​
Bok Choy 8-20	45.3​	0​	#DIV/0!​
ButterCrunch lettuce 8-21	37.4​	15.2​	2.46​
Sylyestra lettuce 8-21	33.4​	13.3​	2.51​
Radish 8-22	13.5​	12.1​	1.12​
Green ice lettuce 8-22	35.2​	15.4​	2.29​
Little gem lettuce 8-22	31.9​	12.8​	2.49​
Romain lettuce 8-22	6.8​	3.2​	2.13​

I certainly never expected those results. I'm also seeing HK brassicas (cabbage,broc,brussels,cauliflower) that are averaging 150% larger than the in-garden plants. Also, did not expect that. Specific measurements are posted in the main thread referenced. Also, current pictures of brassicas and leafy veggies are posted there.

I'm planning a fairly complete study of potatoes in HK containers, focusing on white potatoes, but have had to put that aspect on temporary hold because seed potatoes are in dormancy here now and basically unavailable until about Dec.

The fall results have been most interesting...and have convinced me to incorporate HK containers into my mainline garden tool set. No need to wait until later.

At some point, later this year or early next year I will try to summarize my findings across the thirty something new veggies and all seasons.

In the meantime, feel free to ask any specific questions...and/or offer possible explanations of some of these incredible results.

 

[Susan BBPM]

Since you did get such good results, meadowlark, I wonder if you'd just recapitulate your experiences of the season:
the sizes & volumes & depth of your hugelkultur containers
How much of this and hoe much of that, & at what depths, & what you found reacted best to the set up?

Your climate is similar to mine. What are your thoughts on this working in the West of Scotland?

I'm planning on making up my containers today and still haven't decided how to proceed.

I'm thinking that rotting wood probably provides a source of water at the bottom of the container that can be wicked up as needed. This would keep moisture levels constant without the roots sitting in water. That would help keep soil life in the containers alive. It's going to save on compost etc. Even in our climate I find it hard work to keep containers constantly moist.

I guess the negatives are that by holding water in the bottom of the pot over wet winters, winter frosts could expand it and split the pots.

We're planning on using slug nematodes so I'm not overly concerned about creating slug habitat.

Maybe the solution for me is to nip around to the farm and get enough manure to half fill all my containers. The pop some compost on top to grow my winter pansies and wallflowers in. By late spring that manure will be nicely rotted down. I can tip it out, then re-build my containers with rotten wood at the bottom then a mix of manure and compost on top - along with some worm castings etc.

Or are my concerns about the wet wood splitting my tubs in winter silly? My tubs are fairly strong looking plastic.

 

[Oliver Buckle]

Or are my concerns about the wet wood splitting my tubs in winter silly? My tubs are fairly strong looking plastic.

Firstly note Meadowlark started by drilling ample drainage holes in the bottom of his tubs, so there will not be an actual pool of water to freeze, only the water in the wood and earth. Also The containers are plastic, which gives a little. I have several things in large pots, some go in for winter, but things like my lavender stay out and have for a number of years without splitting. The only problem I have ever had with splitting pots is with things like large flowerpots which are made from terracotta, which is water absorbent, then the water inside the material causes bits to flake off.
So long as you have enough depth the plants don't come up against raw manure, which might or might not be bad for them, I don't know, the idea of a colourful display whilst making your topsoil sounds attractive.

Reading elsewhere about the technique they talk about mounds five or six feet tall that need no watering, even in the driest summers. I am not going that tall, but after last summer with 9% of average rainfall I am seriously considering putting something together.

 

[headfullofbees]

Your climate is similar to mine. What are your thoughts on this working in the West of Scotland?

I'm planning on making up my containers today and still haven't decided how to proceed.

I'm thinking that rotting wood probably provides a source of water at the bottom of the container that can be wicked up as needed. This would keep moisture levels constant without the roots sitting in water. That would help keep soil life in the containers alive. It's going to save on compost etc. Even in our climate I find it hard work to keep containers constantly moist.

I guess the negatives are that by holding water in the bottom of the pot over wet winters, winter frosts could expand it and split the pots.

We're planning on using slug nematodes so I'm not overly concerned about creating slug habitat.

Maybe the solution for me is to nip around to the farm and get enough manure to half fill all my containers. The pop some compost on top to grow my winter pansies and wallflowers in. By late spring that manure will be nicely rotted down. I can tip it out, then re-build my containers with rotten wood at the bottom then a mix of manure and compost on top - along with some worm castings etc.

Or are my concerns about the wet wood splitting my tubs in winter silly? My tubs are fairly strong looking plastic.

I'm thinking that rotting wood may soak up water when it's available, but release it as required, giving a far more even availability of water without overwatering.
Avoiding much of the watering equals sluicing out far fewer minerals, so giving a better, more even, nutrient level for the plants.
It is also the case that containers warm better in our climate than the soil, so there's a potential for even more benefit there.
There is also the nitrogen released by the rotting wood, which would help explain the excellent brassicas.
I don't think your concerns about your pots splitting are silly, wet wood does expand. Just don't pack it in.
It may be the case that because our climate is considerably cooler than Texas we see a bit less benefit, but although to a lesser extent, the same rules apply.

 

[Susan BBPM]

Thanks both. And yes, thinking about it only terracotta pots have split over winter - I hadn't considered that it's the water in the actual pot that expands.

I have 8 big 50 cm wide, deep containers. I'm going to try 4 one way and 4 another and see what works and what doesn't. All the pots will stand on a gravel area at the south facing, very sheltered front of my house. I plan to rake away the gravel under the pots, break up the soil a bit. pour down some sugar solution and compost tea and a bit of manure from the farm and stand the pots (with big drainage holes) on top of that. Ideally I'd cut the bottoms right off the pots, but I want to be able to move them for house maintenance.

I have a lean-to portable greenhouse and some cloches that I can protect my pots with in May/June to make sure they aren't held back by cooler weather early in the season.

First 4 Containers:

• 3/4 filled with partially rotted cow manure (with a bit of bedding straw mixed in)
• 1/4 topped with store bought all purpose compost.

Second 4 Containers:

• 1/4 filled with rotten wood
• 1/4 filled with manure
• 1/4 filled with garden compost
• 1/4 filled with store bought all purpose compost

In spring when I plant my beans and squashes I can add some bits and bobs like worm castings etc.

In future years, all being well, my plan would be to treat them like raised beds and simply add a couple of inches of garden compost to the top each year - or perhaps a bit of rotted manure, worm castings etc. My thinking is I won't mix stuff in - treat it 100% like no dig.

Any criticisms or ideas to improve on this?

 

[headfullofbees]

I'm somewhat surprised that you are using your garden soil in your containers. I've had very poor results using garden soil in my raised beds (3' x8' x 2') I think it's because my soil is very high in clay and very low in organic material. I started out with 2 beds - one that I filled with garden soil and then added tons and tons of organic material. The other I used commercial raised bed mix. That was 4 years ago. The one that started out with garden soil is STILL problematic, even though I continue to add organic material every year. It gets so hard. I wouldn't dare to try to grow root crops in it.

What is your normal garden soil like?

Clay soil holds minerals & nutrients well, & is excellent for growing brassicas, because it gives the plants support.

 

[Oliver Buckle]

Clay soil holds minerals & nutrients well, & is excellent for growing brassicas, because it gives the plants support.

I was going to add runner beans, they appreciate lots of organic and clay, I think it is the continuous moisture. Then I wondered if they would suit the climate in Idaho? And remembered they are not called that in American English, I think it is lima bean.

 

[Chuck]

I was going to add runner beans, they appreciate lots of organic and clay, I think it is the continuous moisture. Then I wondered if they would suit the climate in Idaho? And remembered they are not called that in American English, I think it is lima bean.

Lima beans and broad beans are different. Similar but not the same. Broad beans in the US are called Fava beans. Lima beans in the UK are called Butter beans.

 

[Meadowlark]

Lima beans and broad beans are different. Similar but not the same. Broad beans in the US are called Fava beans. Lima beans in the UK are called Butter beans.

Chuck, have you had much success with growing Limas?

 

[Chuck]

Chuck, have you had much success with growing Limas?

Yes, I have had fairly good success with them. Not like with green beans, but good enough to plant again. And we just don't want to eat them all that often but they sure are good as lima bean soup on a cold winter day with homemade cornbread.

 

[Chuck]

Lima beans take longer than green beans and they will set pods at higher temperatures. But if the temperatures get too high they will fail to set. And if soil temperatures are too low germination and growth are greatly affected. And that is the problem with limas. It is a matter of luck if it will get too hot too soon for a good pod set and bean growth. And if one plants seeds at the same time as green beans cooler soil temperatures greatly affect limas. Maturing time for lima's is about 20-30 days longer than green beans and this time difference is what makes it iffy. It would probably make a big difference if one were to start seeds indoors earlier and I have heard (but not tried) that planting lima beans in potting cells is fairly difficult to do as it is easy to damage the roots at transplanting.

 

[Meadowlark]

Lima beans take longer than green beans and they will set pods at higher temperatures. But if the temperatures get too high they will fail to set.

Yes, therein lies the problem here. It always gets too hot too fast here for them to set of any consequence. I may try some next year in a warmed HK container hoping to get a few days advantage on maturing them before the super heat hits.