Composting worms and Soil Amendments

[alp]

I have not bought any worms as I know that there are tons in my 6 compost bins. I had a look and there was already a bit of juice this morning, but as the wormery was not level, couldn't get it out. I tossed in coffee grinds, ground egg shell, oats, banana skin and peel grounded.

 

[DirtMechanic]

Prophet,

The limits to your question is found in the constant of atmospheric pressure. If you will allow me a moment of suspended disbelief on your part, I will try to make a rough analogy between two engines that use oxygen, one of course is the activity of your plants and the other my attempt to use as example an internal combustion engine.

Many people like high performance vehicles, as you seek high performance plant activity.

Putting a larger gas tank on a vehicle, like adding richness to soil, or adding a variety of fuel additives, like vitamins for soil, or even weighting down or lightening the chassis do not effect change in the oxidation of fuel in the pistons of the engine. Pistons require a constant fuel to Oxygen ratio. This is equivalent to oxidation reactions in plants occuring at normal atmosphere of roughly 14psi. The balance of the reaction components have no impetus for increase, because only more oxygen would allow a greater quantity of fuel to be oxidized, whether plant or engine.

The only thing that truly makes a difference is the addition of more oxygen. As you know, oxygen and water are the prime nutrients for plants, more important than even the major nutrients NPK.

Usually NO2 (nitrous oxide) or a air pressure increasing system like a super charger or turbo charger allow for an engine to burn more fuel because they compress oxygen and deliver therefore more potential to burn more fuel per cyclein the tiny space of a piston.

So in the area you have an interest in, the term plant respiration is used. Plants breath in CO2 and breathe out Oxygen, yet if their roots have no oxygen they suffer. So to avoid pollution of the analogy, lets go into the soil and ask your question in light of how to increase respiration in oxygenated soil and therefore uptake of the fuel nutrients you are making an effort to provide.

How many soil components add to the ability of a plant to increase its cellular respiration at root level and thus take up more fuel? Not many, although all contribute to the process. However, one group of soil components has come to light as a significant support of respiration, and to my understanding it does not speed up the RPM or cycle of the plant respiration but rather the quality of, or quantity of, respiration components of a plant cycle.

This group of soil components is still not well understood as far as I know. It is my understanding that there are 12 of them known, yet only 4 are able to be provided to gardeners at this time. I am sure improvements in science could change this even as I type.

To end my analogy, I suggest you examine the humic acid amendments, the only soil additives I know of to help the engines of your plants "breathe" better.

 

[Prophet]

Prophet,

The limits to your question is found in the constant of atmospheric pressure. If you will allow me a moment of suspended disbelief on your part, I will try to make a rough analogy between two engines that use oxygen, one of course is the activity of your plants and the other my attempt to use as example an internal combustion engine.

Many people like high performance vehicles, as you seek high performance plant activity.

Putting a larger gas tank on a vehicle, like adding richness to soil, or adding a variety of fuel additives, like vitamins for soil, or even weighting down or lightening the chassis do not effect change in the oxidation of fuel in the pistons of the engine. Pistons require a constant fuel to Oxygen ratio. This is equivalent to oxidation reactions in plants occuring at normal atmosphere of roughly 14psi. The balance of the reaction components have no impetus for increase, because only more oxygen would allow a greater quantity of fuel to be oxidized, whether plant or engine.

The only thing that truly makes a difference is the addition of more oxygen. As you know, oxygen and water are the prime nutrients for plants, more important than even the major nutrients NPK.

Usually NO2 (nitrous oxide) or a air pressure increasing system like a super charger or turbo charger allow for an engine to burn more fuel because they compress oxygen and deliver therefore more potential to burn more fuel per cyclein the tiny space of a piston.

So in the area you have an interest in, the term plant respiration is used. Plants breath in CO2 and breathe out Oxygen, yet if their roots have no oxygen they suffer. So to avoid pollution of the analogy, lets go into the soil and ask your question in light of how to increase respiration in oxygenated soil and therefore uptake of the fuel nutrients you are making an effort to provide.

How many soil components add to the ability of a plant to increase its cellular respiration at root level and thus take up more fuel? Not many, although all contribute to the process. However, one group of soil components has come to light as a significant support of respiration, and to my understanding it does not speed up the RPM or cycle of the plant respiration but rather the quality of, or quantity of, respiration components of a plant cycle.

This group of soil components is still not well understood as far as I know. It is my understanding that there are 12 of them known, yet only 4 are able to be provided to gardeners at this time. I am sure improvements in science could change this even as I type.

To end my analogy, I suggest you examine the humic acid amendments, the only soil additives I know of to help the engines of your plants "breathe" better.

Very informative and helpful info..Thanks DM

 

[TomatoTango]

If you manage to find out anything concrete post the results. I compost almost exclusively with worms in large bins and a chest freezer and feed them a wide variety of materials including rock powders like azomite and humic acid coated over horse manure. I have no proof my worm castings come out better, per se, but they can grow anything and make an amazing amendment.

 

[Prophet]

If you manage to find out anything concrete post the results. I compost almost exclusively with worms in large bins and a chest freezer and feed them a wide variety of materials including rock powders like azomite and humic acid coated over horse manure. I have no proof my worm castings come out better, per se, but they can grow anything and make an amazing amendment.

I ran several experiments with all different types of plants and vegetables. To make an extremely long story short every plant that I put in the amendments and worms grew bigger plants and more fruit. Being that the information is so limited on the subject I'm glad to have tried them b/c like everyone else, I was just guessing. Whether you notice a nominal difference or not in your methods mine turned out fantastically. Never hurts to experiment and give it a shot for yourself

 

[TomatoTango]

That’s what I’m doing now with worm juice. I read about people saying it’s like a cure all for plants as foliar spray or liquid food. I took my old chest freezer and packed it with hay, leaves, compost, some dirt, cardboard, natural rock powders, and worms. I had trouble with moisture at first but after drilling some holes and adding more dry material they seem okay. At about 1 month old, it’s starting to come out gradually darker. I hope to have a lot ready come tomato season in a few months.

 

[Prophet]

I've used it as a foliar spray before and had varied results. There seems to be 2 distinct sides to the worm tea foliar spray. Those who agree with it and those who don't believe it does anything. I've even had conversations with people who swore that the foliar spray from first sprouting will help with plant diseases such as powdery mildew, molds, blight etc. I personally am not so sure about the disease resistance but I don't claim to know it all either ya know (maybe it does do that). From my experience the foliar spray never helped my vegetables but seemed to have more of an effect on my caladiums and elephants ears. I have no idea why that would be but it was a noticeable difference when I would feed them. They would brighten up and perk up almost immediately. Its done wonders for my rose bushes too.

I like the freezer idea you have there too by the way..nice job

 

[TomatoTango]

Thanks. I try to repurpose when possible. I don’t really have any expectations but the worm castings will be gold regardless and I can always use more worms around. I will probably try a few different ideas with the stuff. I don’t do foliar feedings anyhow most of the time since the tomatoes usually hate it but I’ll definitely be making some 1:10 strength liquid food.

 

[roadrunner]

I don't think worm castings are nearly as beneficial to the soil and plants as is just having a healthy population of worms in the garden. I think it's a waste of time to vermicompost, just create a beneficial environment for worms to thrive and your garden will thrive.

 

[TomatoTango]

I don't think worm castings are nearly as beneficial to the soil and plants as is just having a healthy population of worms in the garden. I think it's a waste of time to vermicompost, just create a beneficial environment for worms to thrive and your garden will thrive.

Yes and no. What do you suggest I do with the food scraps from a family of 5 then? Because if I put that directly in garden beds then dogs, bears, and raccoons would be ripping the soil out of my beds. I live in the middle of the woods.

My compost bins have produced large, large quantities of castings. And I have worms in all the beds too, hundreds and hundreds in each bed. But here’s the thing. After a hot summer a lot of the worms are dead or gone. So I add more. Several wheelbarrows full every year of compost, horse manure, and worms with castings.

 

[Chuck]

Yes and no. What do you suggest I do with the food scraps from a family of 5 then? Because if I put that directly in garden beds then dogs, bears, and raccoons would be ripping the soil out of my beds. I live in the middle of the woods.

My compost bins have produced large, large quantities of castings. And I have worms in all the beds too, hundreds and hundreds in each bed. But here’s the thing. After a hot summer a lot of the worms are dead or gone. So I add more. Several wheelbarrows full every year of compost, horse manure, and worms with castings.

Actually I think it's a great thing. Compost from scraps with the added benefit of worm castings. Not only that but you have a steady supply of fish bait. I would do it here but it gets too hot for worms to survive in the places I have for them during summer

 

[TomatoTango]

Actually I think it's a great thing. Compost from scraps with the added benefit of worm castings. Not only that but you have a steady supply of fish bait. I would do it here but it gets too hot for worms to survive in the places I have for them during summer

Ditto. My hoop house beds are almost impossible to keep worms in and in the summer everything in there dies or stops producing as it’s just too hot. So the compost bins and worm adding is necessary if I want a good vegetable crop in the non summer months.

 

[Prophet]

I don't think worm castings are nearly as beneficial to the soil and plants as is just having a healthy population of worms in the garden. I think it's a waste of time to vermicompost, just create a beneficial environment for worms to thrive and your garden will thrive.

Thanks for the input but I couldn't disagree more. I just got done with several setups and experiments that proves the worms are much more beneficial to have than not.

 

[Prophet]

Ditto. My hoop house beds are almost impossible to keep worms in and in the summer everything in there dies or stops producing as it’s just too hot. So the compost bins and worm adding is necessary if I want a good vegetable crop in the non summer months.

Same issues here, way too hot most of the time.

 

[roadrunner]

Yes and no. What do you suggest I do with the food scraps from a family of 5 then? Because if I put that directly in garden beds then dogs, bears, and raccoons would be ripping the soil out of my beds. I live in the middle of the woods.

My compost bins have produced large, large quantities of castings. And I have worms in all the beds too, hundreds and hundreds in each bed. But here’s the thing. After a hot summer a lot of the worms are dead or gone. So I add more. Several wheelbarrows full every year of compost, horse manure, and worms with castings.

Thanks for the input but I couldn't disagree more. I just got done with several setups and experiments that proves the worms are much more beneficial to have than not.

I think I was misunderstood, or maybe I should have worded my post better, let me try again...

Vermicomposting I found was a waste of time FOR ME AND THE WAY I GARDEN

I did try the worm bins, but I found that I had to spend more time than I wanted to maintaining it for worms. And there were some things I couldn't throw into the worm bin, such as onions, garlic, etc... And because it's an enclosed container I had to worry about too much rain or it being too hot or too cold for the worms.

I also compost all my kitchen scraps and I don't feel like separating kitchen scraps for the regular compost and kitchen scraps for the worm bin. I've decided that the best way to compost (FOR ME) is to simply throw all kitchen (and yard) waste into my gardens, under the mulch, that way the organisms, including worms can simply just sift thru what they want and if there is any thing, such as onions, that they don't like, they can easily just move away, since they're not confined in a bin. Furthermore, I don't have to spend the time sifting thru the bin to collect the casting, the worms just put them where I need them.

I don't have to worry about weather destroying my worms, because they have adequate shelter in my yard to find safety. We just went thru a brutal winter and a lot of rain, yet last Wednesday I was digging up dirt to lay a log path thru various parts of my yard and garden and in that process I saw tons of worms, so they do just fine in nature without my assistance, other than providing a thick layer of mulch. The benefits of worms to the soil go way beyond their castings, the tunnels they dig help to keep the soil healthy...>>>> http://extension.illinois.edu/worms/live/ <<< Good read.

As for animals, I get a lot of animals in my yard, including raccoons, opossums, squirrels...and it's been my experience that they don't go after my food scraps, as incredible as that sounds. The only thing they seem to do is dig thru the soil a lot looking for grubs and stuff. The only times I've found my food scraps dug up is when I include meat, bones and carcasses included in my food scraps. Now what I do for that is to leave those things out in the open and allow them to eat it up, until they're satisfied, then I go back and bury the bones.

I didn't intend to say that ^^^this^^^ is the way things should be done, rather this is what I've found works best for me.

 

[TomatoTango]

I’ve had a black bear tear one of my bin doors clean off, twice. He’s such a jerk too because then he doesn’t even touch or eat anything. Like dude, come on! Apparently dirt mixed with bread and coffee grounds didn’t do it for him.

I don’t put animal products outside of egg shells in it. Garlic and onions smell, so I try to avoid putting them in but outside of the onion skins my worms will eat them. So if some onion pieces were in our dinner I don’t bother sorting it but if you’re talking huge hunks from a cutting board I skip those. I don’t put citrus or peels in. The few times grapefruit or orange peels found their way in the worms simply eat everything around it.

In my experience the only way to ruin it is to let the pile dry out completely. But I can ignore them for weeks at a time and they just keep on eating cardboard and rocks. Usually they get fed daily. And then I just sort of toss random stuff in every couple weeks like rock phosphate or biolive.

 

[Prophet]

I think I was misunderstood, or maybe I should have worded my post better, let me try again...

Vermicomposting I found was a waste of time FOR ME AND THE WAY I GARDEN

I did try the worm bins, but I found that I had to spend more time than I wanted to maintaining it for worms. And there were some things I couldn't throw into the worm bin, such as onions, garlic, etc... And because it's an enclosed container I had to worry about too much rain or it being too hot or too cold for the worms.

I also compost all my kitchen scraps and I don't feel like separating kitchen scraps for the regular compost and kitchen scraps for the worm bin. I've decided that the best way to compost (FOR ME) is to simply throw all kitchen (and yard) waste into my gardens, under the mulch, that way the organisms, including worms can simply just sift thru what they want and if there is any thing, such as onions, that they don't like, they can easily just move away, since they're not confined in a bin. Furthermore, I don't have to spend the time sifting thru the bin to collect the casting, the worms just put them where I need them.

I don't have to worry about weather destroying my worms, because they have adequate shelter in my yard to find safety. We just went thru a brutal winter and a lot of rain, yet last Wednesday I was digging up dirt to lay a log path thru various parts of my yard and garden and in that process I saw tons of worms, so they do just fine in nature without my assistance, other than providing a thick layer of mulch. The benefits of worms to the soil go way beyond their castings, the tunnels they dig help to keep the soil healthy...>>>> http://extension.illinois.edu/worms/live/ <<< Good read.

As for animals, I get a lot of animals in my yard, including raccoons, opossums, squirrels...and it's been my experience that they don't go after my food scraps, as incredible as that sounds. The only thing they seem to do is dig thru the soil a lot looking for grubs and stuff. The only times I've found my food scraps dug up is when I include meat, bones and carcasses included in my food scraps. Now what I do for that is to leave those things out in the open and allow them to eat it up, until they're satisfied, then I go back and bury the bones.

I didn't intend to say that ^^^this^^^ is the way things should be done, rather this is what I've found works best for me.

Ah I gotcha. Apologies for the misunderstanding

 

[TomatoTango]

I’ve done some reading on the topic. The worms will produce or transform whatever they eat. So if they eat egg shells then calcium would be added. If they eat banana peels then it adds phosphorous. The reason a lot of people believe worms only produce nitrogen is because they’re only feeding them cardboard and paper, which will in fact produce nothing but nitrogen. So feeding them a more diverse diet, including rock powders and lots of food scraps, makes for more nutritionally diverse castings. It isn’t being wasted, in fact it becomes more bioavailable for plants as it gets digested and covered in worm juices.

 

[Prophet]

I’ve done some reading on the topic. The worms will produce or transform whatever they eat. So if they eat egg shells then calcium would be added. If they eat banana peels then it adds phosphorous. The reason a lot of people believe worms only produce nitrogen is because they’re only feeding them cardboard and paper, which will in fact produce nothing but nitrogen. So feeding them a more diverse diet, including rock powders and lots of food scraps, makes for more nutritionally diverse castings. It isn’t being wasted, in fact it becomes more bioavailable for plants as it gets digested and covered in worm juices.

Agreed based on my research and projects as well. Thanks for sharing.

 

[headfullofbees]

The porosity created by worms may be another reason not to bury tomatoes deep, as the (near to) surface roots probable need to breathe, so there is little point going below the depth of worms.