Manure 101.

[Oliver Buckle]

I'm not going to become a grumpy negative person thinking I can stop people from revolving around technology and moving further away from nature.

I am definitely a grumpy old git, but I try not to be negative, and technology doesn't have to be either. For example a group of sub-aqua divers saw how badly a sea bed was being destroyed by anchors, filmed it, made people aware and got permanent anchors in place with mooring buoys, technology of various sorts at every stage. Now the sea grass is growing back and sea horses returning on the coast of Wales.

 

[pepper]

I am definitely a grumpy old git, but I try not to be negative, and technology doesn't have to be either. For example a group of sub-aqua divers saw how badly a sea bed was being destroyed by anchors, filmed it, made people aware and got permanent anchors in place with mooring buoys, technology of various sorts at every stage. Now the sea grass is growing back and sea horses returning on the coast of Wales.

The grumpy negative comment had nothing to do with you, just how some people who hate change can't accept it is what it is and will continue to change long after they are gone like AI and other technology for example. And again, not everyone is more concerned with their material possessions then they are with nature, as what you said for example. But if most people were more concerned with the environment then the environment wouldn't be polluted as it is and would have changed long, long ago when pollution first started becoming a topic of conversation. That's not to say it can't or won't change but so far it doesn't look like all that much is being done, if you can't even buy manure without great concern of what it will do to the garden lol.

 

[redback]

If humans wipe themselves out nature will take over the next day.
On one hand the hospital sterilization, the house cleaner with a magnifying glass and the Zen master with his contemplative garden are all perfectionists.
On the other hand, King Charles and Piet Oudorf plant a perennial garden of mixed varieties that only gets mowed once a year. They 'simply accept' they cannot reach perfection. I don't think we can eliminate all errors and avoid all poisons. I think we have to bring the child and the garden up to accept danger and take risks.
Did I mention fly spray? - Argentinian red ants? - Portuguese millipedes? - onion weed?

 

[Oliver Buckle]

Did I mention fly spray? - Argentinian red ants? - Portuguese millipedes? - onion weed?

Asiatic hornets, varroa, knot weed, poisonous spiders, bird flu, covid ... As long as people travel the list will go on growing.

 

[redback]

My local landscape supply company isn't going to delivery truckloads of poisonous soil all around the district. They would be out of business.
I would say that the organic horse manure will be safe. In all probability the guy is injured or broke and needs someone to clean his stables.

 

[roadrunner]

I keep hearing lately about pesticides and herbicides being in manure and no doubt in my mind it is, if we people can't get away from it being in our own food from the grocery stores then animals are just as likely to be eating stuff that was sprayed too. But if it only stays in the garden for a year or two then how long could it possibly last in manure if it's piled, aged and composted, being out in the elements? I've never ran into a problem using manure and I fill my truck for the garden and compost piles with aged horse manure and knowing the farmer I get it from it's highly unlikely his horses are organic lol. But I just don't see it being a problem in any manure unless it's fresh. If it was that easy to wipe out weeds and pests farmers wouldn't be spending the money having to soak their crops with it year after year, they would spray it every few years or so and that's full strength mix, not diluted in manure being rinsed with rain while it slowly composts in a pile.

Even all the stuff that I buy in grocery stores is always sprayed, I never buy expensive organic stuff. And whatever I don't eat always ends up in my compost, so with or without manure, herbicides and pesticides are getting into my garden. But at a level so low it does no harm at all after its all composted.

Short Answer, I don't know, because I don't use manure or purchased hay in my yard.

However, there are tons of stories out there of gardeners that have had problems with this herbicide, which unlike glyphosate, it has zero effect on certain plants, especially those in the grass family.

And it's very possible you are ingesting this insecticide, just like you're probably ingesting glyphosate, but by all studies it's safe for animals, including humans. However, it will kill many broadleaf plants, especially in the nightshade family.

The farmer you get your manure from probably doesn't use the stuff, it's very expensive, he probably just uses RoundUp or something else.

Here's a good link about the concern of this type of herbicide, which is not to be confused with other herbicides such as glyphosate.

SS-AGR-415/AG416: Herbicide Residues in Manure, Compost, or Hay

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Excerpt: More information in the above link

HERBICIDE RESIDUES IN MANURE, COMPOST, OR HAY1​

J. A. Ferrell, P. J. Dittmar, B. A. Sellers, and P. Devkota 2
When purchasing compost, it is important to understand that some manure-based products can contain herbicide residues that can affect the growth of sensitive plants. Manure from animals that have been fed with forage treated with aminopyralid or other closely related herbicides, such as clopyralid or picloram, can be contaminated with residue from these herbicides. These herbicide residues can severely injure legumes, solanaceous crops, and other broadleaf plants. Fortunately, a simple plant bioassay can be conducted to test for herbicide contamination. There are many options to consider if contaminated compost has been applied.

HERBICIDE​

Aminopyralid is a highly effective herbicide that is commonly sprayed on pastures and hayfields as Milestone™, GrazonNext HL™, or Chaparral™. This herbicide is safe on grasses, but effectively manages many of our noxious and invasive broadleaf weeds, including tropical soda apple. Aminopyralid works by mimicking the natural plant growth hormone auxin. As the herbicide is absorbed into plant tissue, rapid and uncontrollable growth occurs until the plant "grows itself to death." Grasses are highly tolerant to this herbicide because they rapidly metabolize the molecule and sequester it in special parts of the cell so it is no longer available for herbicide action. Many broadleaf plants cannot accomplish the metabolism/sequestration step and succumb to herbicide effects. Fortunately, aminopyralid targets a process that is unique to plants; therefore, humans and other animals are not affected by this herbicide. Livestock can actually graze treated pastures immediately after aminopyralid application because the herbicide quickly passes through the animal with no ill effects and is excreted in manure (urine and feces).

COMPOST​

Animal manure or compost is an ideal amendment to naturally improve soil fertility and organic matter content. However, some manure or compost may contain weed seeds, while others could potentially be contaminated with herbicide. Unfortunately, manure contamination can occur if the animal has been fed forage treated with aminopyralid or other closely related herbicides, such as clopyralid or picloram.
Because aminopyralid is absorbed into plant leaves and sequestered for the leaves' lifetime, the herbicide residue will be present. This is the case even if the grass is cut, dried, and baled as hay. When this forage is fed to livestock, the leaf tissues are broken down and the herbicide is released within the digestive tract of the animal, then excreted in manure. For this reason, all herbicides containing aminopyralid explicitly state that manure or treated grass cannot be used as mulch or compost for sensitive broadleaf crops (Figure 1).

 

[roadrunner]

I love birds, insects, watching things grow. I love nature. But I am also a realistic minded person who takes notice that most people no longer take time to notice those things because they are counting their money not butterflies. As each generation grows and dies a new generation does more harm to the world then the last one, it is why the polition is the way it is. I never said I was happy about it but I'm not going to become a grumpy negative person thinking I can stop people from revolving around technology and moving further away from nature.

Here's another link on these persistent herbicides. This is a good link, because it's from a guy that spends his time busting gardening myths and he's a professionally trained chemist who has a knack at giving concise explanations.

It's important to note that this class of herbicide is not widely used, but it has been reported by gardeners using commercial manures such as Black Kow.

Warning: Herbicide Contaminated Compost, Straw and Organic Fertilizer

Over the last 20 years there have been a number of news reports about herbicide contaminated manure, compost, straw and organic fertilizer. This is a real problem for gardeners because such products will harm and even kill your plants. The danger is real! How can this happen? How common is this...

www.gardenmyths.com

 

[Oliver Buckle]

but by all studies it's safe for animals, including humans.

That is because it goes straight through mammals unaltered.

 

[Meadowlark]

.... This is a good link, because it's from a guy that spends his time busting gardening myths and he's a professionally trained chemist who has a knack at giving concise explanations.

• "The danger is real!" exactly what I have been saying throughout this thread.
• "do a simple DIY bioassay yourself to test your soil" again exactly what I wrote earlier.
• "Once soil is contaminated it can take several years for microbes to decompose the persistent herbicides." Seems like he read what I wrote, LOL.

This is no "garden myth" and although occurrence is not a high probability, the effects can be devastating and long lasting. Certainly not something which I would advise any gardeners to "simply accept".

 

[pepper]

Here's another link on these persistent herbicides. This is a good link, because it's from a guy that spends his time busting gardening myths and he's a professionally trained chemist who has a knack at giving concise explanations.

It's important to note that this class of herbicide is not widely used, but it has been reported by gardeners using commercial manures such as Black Kow.

Thanks for the info, I looked over it but will have to go over it after when I can sit and focus. It makes a lot more sense that it's a specific more uncommon kind of herbicide, unlike roundup that is widely used.

I still don't know, I guess it's up to each gardeners discretion. To me even though there are probably lots of reports of gardens being poisoned by using manure with this stuff in it, it's still highly unlikely if you calculate the amount of people who use bagged manure each year compared to the amount of gardeners who used it and had devastating effects from it. Although I would personally avoid that black Kow brand.

• "The danger is real!" exactly what I have been saying throughout this thread.
• "do a simple DIY bioassay yourself to test your soil" again exactly what I wrote earlier.
• "Once soil is contaminated it can take several years for microbes to decompose the persistent herbicides." Seems like he read what I wrote, LOL.

This is no "garden myth" and although occurrence is not a high probability, the effects can be devastating and long lasting. Certainly not something which I would advise any gardeners to "simply accept".

It was never a doubt or debate that it wasn't a possibility. It's just so unlikely it's not worth being paranoid about.

 

[Meadowlark]

... It's just so unlikely it's not worth being paranoid about.

Asking an unknown supplier if he has used any of those chemicals is NOT "paranoia", rather it is just good common sense.

Testing on a doubtful supply is NOT "paranoia", rather it is just good common sense.

Exaggerate much?

 

[pepper]

Asking an unknown supplier if he has used any of those chemicals is NOT "paranoia", rather it is just good common sense.

Testing on a doubtful supply is NOT "paranoia", rather it is just good common sense.

Exaggerate much?

Exaggerate? What is the point of asking a complete stranger who obviously wants to get rid of their manure if those chemicals are in it? You do understand people lie to gain these days right? Either the person tells you the truth or a lie, but I guess if they do say "yes Meadowlark, I want you to take this manure I am trying to get rid of but be warned, it is going to kill everything in your garden when you use it" But please, take it anyway lol.

Testing it is fine but in all seriousness how many gardeners do you seriously believe do that? Should they? Sure, maybe. Do they? Not likely. Some yes, most no. When you walk down the street do you cover yourself in bullet proof clothing and strap mirrors all over yourself because you see shootings all over the news or do you simply accept it's a possibility but not likely going to happen so you "simply accept" it is possible but not worth stressing over?

 

[Meadowlark]

I asked AI just now "Should I ask an unknown supplier of manure if it has any harmful chemicals in it?"


Bing AI answer:

It is always a good idea to be cautious when using manure from an unknown supplier. Some herbicides can remain active in hay, grass clippings, piles of manure, and compost for an unusually long time 1. These herbicides can cause damage to vegetable and flower crops after applying horse or livestock manure, compost, hay, or grass clippings to the soil 1. The symptoms reported include poor seed germination; death of young plants; twisted, cupped, and elongated leaves; misshapen fruit; and reduced yields 1.

If you are unsure about the quality of the manure, it is best to ask the supplier if they have used any herbicides or pesticides on their crops or fields. You can also ask if they have tested the manure for any harmful chemicals 1. If the supplier is unable to provide you with this information, it may be best to look for another supplier.


It seems your vaunted AI does not agree with you. Also, I didn't see that it proclaimed it was "paranoid" to ask.

 

[Meadowlark]

....When you walk down the street do you cover yourself in bullet proof clothing and strap mirrors all over yourself because you see shootings all over the news ...

Exaggerate much? QED!!

 

[redback]

This has got a one percent chance of effecting my cow manure imports but i have some ready to plant and time to test it. I'll pop in a tomato seedling now and look at it in a couple of weeks. Thanks for the info.