Sustainable Gardening

[Susan BBPM]

Not sure this is exactly the right title, but to clarify - I'm wanting to explore all the ins and outs (and whether it's possible) to grow vegetables year in and year out without bringing in any external resources.

In the natural world nothing leaves the 'system'. It's a perfect cycle where things eat, poop, die and decompose with nothing being taken out.

The very fact that we're pooping and peeing in a toilet means we ARE taking something out of our system. Presumably we need to replace that from external sources (i.e someone else's land) ?

Even if you keep livestock I would think that's not enough. If you're eating veg and not applying 'human compost' to your garden then you're taking something out. Unless you slaughter and bury your livestock on your land you're taking something out.

At a bare minimum, with optimum systems in place for composting, worm farming, making natural fertilizers etc - how much do you need to bring in to maintain your little ecosystem?

Consider the way of life of ancient peoples such as the Native Americans. They lived in a closed system. They and the animals that they ate lived, pooped, ate and died (decomposed) into their environment. That's sustainable - the land would support that way of life for ever.

 

[skinyea]

Not 100% there but as far as my growing goes I am getting closer and closer.

have been gardening for about 35 years but only last 15 seriously. started with 1 raised bed. now have 22 raised beds of different sizes, and 40+ pots

started out bringing in soil and buying seeds/fertilizer etc. even buying plants from home depot or a local seller. spent a lot of $$$

every year I have worked on reducing what I spend while increasing what I harvest. started out as a fun hobby but turned into a way of life.
fast forward to today. I know how to compost most of my own soil, cover crop, harvest seeds for next years garden, can enough food to get through till the next year. etc.

I grow enough that I can trade veggies for just about everything I need. Have not bought eggs in 5 years. just trade veggies for them to a local. I also help clean out their coops and in return I get the poop.

I have 7 compost sites set up that creates almost all of the soil I need to replenish.

during covid when everyone was running to stores we just unfroze, rehydrated or opened some cans.

This year so far I have spent less than $50. for supplies. Neem oil was most of it.

not there yet but thanks to a lot of people on this site, I am on my way.

 

[Ruderunner]

Not sure this is exactly the right title, but to clarify - I'm wanting to explore all the ins and outs (and whether it's possible) to grow vegetables year in and year out without bringing in any external resources.

Possible? Sure. Practical? Maybe not, the law of diminishing returns gets in the way.

In the natural world nothing leaves the 'system'. It's a perfect cycle where things eat, poop, die and decompose with nothing being taken out.

And this happens on a grand scale. Small scale, personal size is going to present challenges.

The very fact that we're pooping and peeing in a toilet means we ARE taking something out of our system. Presumably we need to replace that from external sources (i.e someone else's land) ?

For good reason. Human waste carries diseases that can spread to other humans. True though that your waste is sterile to you. But only you, not your friends or family. It can work but only at the smallest scale.

Even if you keep livestock I would think that's not enough. If you're eating veg and not applying 'human compost' to your garden then you're taking something out. Unless you slaughter and bury your livestock on your land you're taking something out.

Hunters might be able to share some insight. Would burning be a substitute for burial?

At a bare minimum, with optimum systems in place for composting, worm farming, making natural fertilizers etc - how much do you need to bring in to maintain your little ecosystem?

I suppose one would need to figure out how much food humans need and work backwards from there. 2000 calories is generally thought to be sufficient but one needs to consider where the calories come from.

Consider the way of life of ancient peoples such as the Native Americans. They lived in a closed system. They and the animals that they ate lived, pooped, ate and died (decomposed) into their environment. That's sustainable - the land would support that way of life for ever.

Close. But it's not like it was a fenced in area. People and animals roam, often looking for more food supplies. This left some areas fallow until the next herd or tribe moved in. Probably should factor in extra space for that.

Not sure this is exactly the right title, but to clarify - I'm wanting to explore all the ins and outs (and whether it's possible) to grow vegetables year in and year out without bringing in any external resources.

In the natural world nothing leaves the 'system'. It's a perfect cycle where things eat, poop, die and decompose with nothing being taken out.

The very fact that we're pooping and peeing in a toilet means we ARE taking something out of our system. Presumably we need to replace that from external sources (i.e someone else's land) ?

Even if you keep livestock I would think that's not enough. If you're eating veg and not applying 'human compost' to your garden then you're taking something out. Unless you slaughter and bury your livestock on your land you're taking something out.

At a bare minimum, with optimum systems in place for composting, worm farming, making natural fertilizers etc - how much do you need to bring in to maintain your little ecosystem?

Consider the way of life of ancient peoples such as the Native Americans. They lived in a closed system. They and the animals that they ate lived, pooped, ate and died (decomposed) into their environment. That's sustainable - the land would support that way of life for ever.

 

[Ruderunner]

Not 100% there but as far as my growing goes I am getting closer and closer.

have been gardening for about 35 years but only last 15 seriously. started with 1 raised bed. now have 22 raised beds of different sizes, and 40+ pots

You've got a head start on me.

started out bringing in soil and buying seeds/fertilizer etc. even buying plants from home depot or a local seller. spent a lot of $$$

Same but moving away from that. I started mainly with clay so I had my work cut out for me. But, I'm getting to the point where I can replenish vs build, much easier.

I've not yet tried harvesting my own seeds but this year I have several crops that self seeded. Also tried starting seedlings at home with mixed but encouraging results.

every year I have worked on reducing what I spend while increasing what I harvest. started out as a fun hobby but turned into a way of life.
fast forward to today. I know how to compost most of my own soil, cover crop, harvest seeds for next years garden, can enough food to get through till the next year. etc.

Canning has been a hobby for me since I was a kid, thanks grandma!

I grow enough that I can trade veggies for just about everything I need. Have not bought eggs in 5 years. just trade veggies for them to a local. I also help clean out their coops and in return I get the poop.

I'm fine with trading but does that count towards the stated goal?

I have 7 compost sites set up that creates almost all of the soil I need to replenish.

during covid when everyone was running to stores we just unfroze, rehydrated or opened some cans.

This year so far I have spent less than $50. for supplies. Neem oil was most of it.

not there yet but thanks to a lot of people on this site, I am on my way.

 

[Susan BBPM]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not planning on trying it, but I believe human waste CAN be turned into good, useable compost if you do it properly.

From wikipedia:

"To destroy pathogens, thermophilic composting must heat the compost pile sufficiently, or enough time (1–2 years) must elapse since fresh material was added that biological activity has had the same pathogen removal effect."

We have 4 dogs and we compost their poop. Just a bin down the bottom of the garden. Each time you put poop in you throw on a handful of sawdust. No smells. In about a year you have compost. You COULD put it on veg, but for safety we put it on the trees by the stream at the bottom of the garden. It's a fenced off wildlife area. The clippings from that hedgerow/trees go into our compost pile so we are brining doggy poop (and their fed on kibble that we buy in) into our system.

You can do the same with human waste. But of course, the risk is that you don't kill off all the pathogens. But if the sewage system goes down all you have to do is poop into a bucket, fling sawdust on top, put a lid on when it's full and leave it for a couple of years. I know some people do it - if they're completely offgrid.

Also, there's been talk in recent months of new alternatives to cremation - composting dead bodies! That's probably come about from concerns about taking too much out of the system. But that understandably caused a bit of an uproar.

 

[Susan BBPM]

As I've been tending the garden (in sweltering heat!) I've been trying to think about what's going out and coming in.

Out
***
1 The vegetables we eat
2. The plants we give away.
3. Anything taken by visiting wildlife

In
**

1. A huge volume of garden waste, kitchen waste and cardboard etc from neighbours for composting
2. As much horse and cow manure as we want from the farm next door.
3. Huge amounts of bought compost (hopefully this will now stop as all our beds are made - our own compost should be enough).
4. Seaweed from the beach
5. Nettles and fallen leaves from anywhere we find them in abundance.
6. Composted dog poop (4 dogs).
7. Anything deposited by visiting wildlife.

Obviously the 'outs' won't change much. Now our beds are all up and running the need for 'Ins' will reduce, but I don't see how you can possibly be self sustaining if you're not bringing things in. And if you're bringing things in - what happens to the place where the things came from?

My neighbours buy in shed loads of store compost, woodchip etc and probably use fertilizers.

What is the farmer doing to replenish all that's been stripped from his soil in order to give away piles of manure and compost?

Taking seaweed from the beach and nettles and fallen leaves from public land seems harmless enough, but if everyone did it?
They say Ukraine is the 'Bread Basket of Europe'. Which makes you wonder - what's replaceing the nutrient being stripped from Ukrainean soil and shipped to Europe?

And where does all the sewage in Europe end up? (I know a lot is illegally dumped in the sea, but I mean the official destination).

If and when more people start 'growing their own' using sustainable methods a lot of these external sources of nutrients will dry up.
But **IF** you get your land in very good shape and start composting EVERYTHING, then in theory you should be able to create a little sustainable ecosystem.

 

[Susan BBPM]

Here's the answer to the question of what happens to the sewage that's flushed down our toilets.

Basically, it's used to generate energy and the by product is indeed used as fertilizer by farmers.

Not sure about using it to generate energy on your own land, but certainly people can and do have composting toilets in their homes. So you could in theory have a self-sustaining ecosystem in your own land. Nothing coming in from outside.

This info is from Thames Water (London):

The sewage treatment process | Education | Responsibility | About us | Thames Water

Learn what happens to the water once you flush the loo or empty the sink, and how we make sure it's good enough to return to the rivers.

www.thameswater.co.uk

And here indeed is a commercially available composting toilet:

Composting Toilets - Centre for Alternative Technology

A composting toilet treats sewage onsite, recycling nutrients into useful fertiliser. Get free tips and advice on composting toilets.

cat.org.uk

"The excreta falls into a composting chamber directly beneath the toilet pedestal. Naturally occurring bacteria, fungi, worms and other organisms will thrive on this organic matter and break it down into humus. The use of an appropriate ‘soak’ material is necessary (see below for more), as is controlling moisture through urine separation and ventilation.

Human excreta can contain pathogenic bacteria, viruses and protozoa, and may be dangerous to human health. Composting kills these human pathogens and the finished compost is safe and free from odour. The compost, usually removed once per year, is an excellent soil conditioner ideal for use on ornamental flowers and shrubs."

You wouldn't need to put the resulting compost on your veg beds. Even if used on flowers and trees, if they are later composted it will end up providing nutrients to your vegetables.

 

[headfullofbees]

Not sure this is exactly the right title, but to clarify - I'm wanting to explore all the ins and outs (and whether it's possible) to grow vegetables year in and year out without bringing in any external resources.

In the natural world nothing leaves the 'system'. It's a perfect cycle where things eat, poop, die and decompose with nothing being taken out.

The very fact that we're pooping and peeing in a toilet means we ARE taking something out of our system. Presumably we need to replace that from external sources (i.e someone else's land) ?

Even if you keep livestock I would think that's not enough. If you're eating veg and not applying 'human compost' to your garden then you're taking something out. Unless you slaughter and bury your livestock on your land you're taking something out.

At a bare minimum, with optimum systems in place for composting, worm farming, making natural fertilizers etc - how much do you need to bring in to maintain your little ecosystem?

Consider the way of life of ancient peoples such as the Native Americans. They lived in a closed system. They and the animals that they ate lived, pooped, ate and died (decomposed) into their environment. That's sustainable - the land would support that way of life for ever.

No.
One way or another, you have to replenish.
The nearest you can get is to grow your own comfrey & use that, (although you'd be sacrificing part of your ground to do so) or to harvest wild, free fertilisers like seaweed, but then you're bringing in resources.
There is also the fact that most plant material is alkaline, so when you harvest, your soil tends to acidify.
If you have very alkaline soil, this may be fine, but most don't.
Have you had any Girvan potatoes yet?
I'm hearing £8.50 ($10)/ kg.
They are nice, but not that nice.

 

[Susan BBPM]

I have comfrey everywhere. Also worm farms, compost heap, various comfrey/nettle/weed fertilizer.

But that's taking nutrients from MY piece of land so it can't make up for what's been taken 'off site'.

If you composted your own waste, and that of all livestock, and buried dead livestock and family members on your property then you would have a closed system. And it is possible to do this.

But to what extent is this necessary?

The more you grow in your garden (volume and diversity), if you 'chop and drop' or compost it you are providing feed for the soil life. How much can you take off-site (eating or giving away veg, sending garden waste to landfill) before your soil starts to suffer?

I mean, if you grow everything possible on every inch of your land, compost it, return it to your beds - you will have outstanding soil. You don't need it to be perfect to grow food. But long term it's not sustainable - if you passed the land onto your descendants then sooner or later someone is going to be saddled with infertile soil that won't grow food.

I put my first potatoes (Swift) in the polytunnel in 1st week of Feb and was eating them all through May. I'm now onto the McCain that were planted out in the garden end of March. All delicious!! Next up will be Kestrel and Jazzy. Then Valor, Desiree, King Edward and Sarpo Mira. King Edwards are my favourite. But we never buy tatties now. (mostly all my own saved seed potatoes too - sarpo, jazzy and mccain are new)

 

[Susan BBPM]

<snip>
There is also the fact that most plant material is alkaline, so when you harvest, your soil tends to acidify.
If you have very alkaline soil, this may be fine, but most don't.
</snip>

Can you expand on this? I'm not sure what you mean.

My soil is clay and naturally acidic. Which most plants seem to prefer?

I have log burners and source wood from elsewhere to burn. Consequently, we're brining in huge amounts of nutrient rich (but alkaline) wood ash. My thinking has been that the garden would love the nutrients but not that alkaline. Are you suggesting that this isn't so? Last y;ear most of it went in the bin as I wasn't sure how to use it. Which is hugely wasteful.

 

[Ruderunner]

It's a matter degrees. While plants have different ideal ph conditions, they can grow outside of those conditions. But, getting too far from the ideal is bad, and the natural tendency is for ph to get lower as time goes by.

If your soil has a higher ph, you can let this go and the soil will eventually optimize. Or add something to lower the ph. The opposite is the issue, ph that's already low will tend to get lower without amendments, typically lime or something similar like your ashes.

Sounds like a good experiment for you to try, if you have say 2 rows of the same crop, work some ashes into one row and compare plant growth. Note that many amendments take time to infiltrate soil so this might take a couple seasons.

 

[Susan BBPM]

It's a matter degrees. While plants have different ideal ph conditions, they can grow outside of those conditions. But, getting too far from the ideal is bad, and the natural tendency is for ph to get lower as time goes by.

If your soil has a higher ph, you can let this go and the soil will eventually optimize. Or add something to lower the ph. The opposite is the issue, ph that's already low will tend to get lower without amendments, typically lime or something similar like your ashes.

Sounds like a good experiment for you to try, if you have say 2 rows of the same crop, work some ashes into one row and compare plant growth. Note that many amendments take time to infiltrate soil so this might take a couple seasons.

The ph of our garden is generally around 6.7 - which is ideal for most plants. So for the most part I don't want to change it. If it's gradually going to become more acidic as you both suggest, then all I'd want is a very gradual addition of alkaline.

I'm thinking along the lines of spreading the ashes on the lawn, hedgrow, food forrest and wilflower beds in the winter. This is a big area so a winter's worth of ashes won't have major impact. This gets the nutrients into the soil there and whatever grows will be composted and spread on the veg beds.

Interested in speculation re the impact of this.

 

[Ruderunner]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not planning on trying it, but I believe human waste CAN be turned into good, useable compost if you do it properly.

From wikipedia:

"To destroy pathogens, thermophilic composting must heat the compost pile sufficiently, or enough time (1–2 years) must elapse since fresh material was added that biological activity has had the same pathogen removal effect."

I still think it's sketchy for the home gardener. Municipal systems have multiple steps and constant testing to verify that the water is clean enough for release.

We have 4 dogs and we compost their poop. Just a bin down the bottom of the garden. Each time you put poop in you throw on a handful of sawdust. No smells. In about a year you have compost. You COULD put it on veg, but for safety we put it on the trees by the stream at the bottom of the garden. It's a fenced off wildlife area. The clippings from that hedgerow/trees go into our compost pile so we are brining doggy poop (and their fed on kibble that we buy in) into our system.

Generally speaking, pathogens are species specific. Things that might be deadly to dogs have no effect on humans and vice versa. It's very unusual for a pathogen to make the jump from one species to another. See recent world history.

You can do the same with human waste. But of course, the risk is that you don't kill off all the pathogens. But if the sewage system goes down all you have to do is poop into a bucket, fling sawdust on top, put a lid on when it's full and leave it for a couple of years. I know some people do it - if they're completely offgrid.

Also, there's been talk in recent months of new alternatives to cremation - composting dead bodies! That's probably come about from concerns about taking too much out of the system. But that understandably caused a bit of an uproar.

This is basically how septic systems and outhouses work. Note though that size matters. Time, volume and dissipation are factors and you certainly don't want your waste facility next to your well.

 

[Ruderunner]

The ph of our garden is generally around 6.7 - which is ideal for most plants. So for the most part I don't want to change it. If it's gradually going to become more acidic as you both suggest, then all I'd want is a very gradual addition of alkaline..

Indeed, good for most. Perhaps try the experiment with something that likes more neutral soil. One can certainly tailor their garden for certain crops.

I'm thinking along the lines of spreading the ashes on the lawn, hedgrow, food forrest and wilflower beds in the winter. This is a big area so a winter's worth of ashes won't have major impact. This gets the nutrients into the soil there and whatever grows will be composted and spread on the veg beds.

Interested in speculation re the impact of this.

It takes time for the ashes to breakdown and spreading it then composting adds to the time frame. I'd try it directly in the garden and see if it makes an improvement. If so I'd probably just go direct to the garden. If not then spread it elsewhere and let nature happen.

 

[headfullofbees]

Can you expand on this? I'm not sure what you mean.

My soil is clay and naturally acidic. Which most plants seem to prefer?

I have log burners and source wood from elsewhere to burn. Consequently, we're brining in huge amounts of nutrient rich (but alkaline) wood ash. My thinking has been that the garden would love the nutrients but not that alkaline. Are you suggesting that this isn't so? Last y;ear most of it went in the bin as I wasn't sure how to use it. Which is hugely wasteful.

What I'm saying is, if you cut, say, a head of broccoli out of your garden, & measured its pH, it would be slightly alkaline.
This, obviously multiplied many times, & the fact that rainwater tends to be slightly acidic, means that, in many, many places in UK, gardeners have to lime their plots every three years to keep their soil from getting too acidic.
Woodash, which is around half as strong as lime, can therefore be used more freely than most people think, & is an excellent re-mineraliser of soil.
I use it directly.