I may need to till my no-till garden

[Chuck]

Do you till your soil every season? There’s seems to be such a big movement in avoiding tilling once your garden is nice and aged… I’m curious as to what the gardening veterans do.

I never till. I just turn the soil over with a shovel and break up the clods if any.

 

[DirtMechanic]

I till. Imo for the small garden tilling, planting, and then mulching is a pretty good way to go. In a no till you are still digging but the roots dont have as much disturbed earth up high to spread out in and the oxidation zone is pretty important. I know how it is supposed to work but none of the weeds and stuff have the internet so they do not understand.

 

[Lmbauer2017]

I never till. I just turn the soil over with a shovel and break up the clods if any.

This is probably me being lazy… but how smallish are you breaking up the clods? These things are kicking my butt… I’ll probably have to just get down and to it by hand. It’s not that big of a space.

Picture below with a 2x4 for size comparison:

 

[Chuck]

This is probably me being lazy… but how smallish are you breaking up the clods? These things are kicking my butt… I’ll probably have to just get down and to it by hand. It’s not that big of a space.

Picture below with a 2x4 for size comparison:

View attachment 91077

Your soil is totally different from mine. You have what is called Blackland Prarie Clay while mine is more loamy with a much higher Ph than yours. If you will shovel in 2 or 3 bags of good compost each year to that area you will find that those clods will be gone. What I see from this picture are clods no bigger than about 3 inches. If it were me I would just rake them up, put into a wheelbarrow and chop them up a little with a shovel. However, they will disappear on their own when you water a few times. But adding compost is the most important. Turning 2 or 3 bags into the soil plus putting copious amounts on the soils surfaced will make a world of difference.

 

[Lmbauer2017]

Your soil is totally different from mine. You have what is called Blackland Prarie Clay while mine is more loamy with a much higher Ph than yours. If you will shovel in 2 or 3 bags of good compost each year to that area you will find that those clods will be gone. What I see from this picture are clods no bigger than about 3 inches. If it were me I would just rake them up, put into a wheelbarrow and chop them up a little with a shovel. However, they will disappear on their own when you water a few times. But adding compost is the most important. Turning 2 or 3 bags into the soil plus putting copious amounts on the soils surfaced will make a world of difference

Well as you know I have no shortage of compost lol. Yeah after the first round of compost mixing I’m realizing I’m gonna need to do this more than a couple of times… already looks a bit better though.

Fun fact, new homes have tons of leftover trash in the front yards

 

[DirtMechanic]

My clay literally can be made into a pot to be fired. Matter of fact thats a good thing to do make pots out of my soil and put potting mix in them.

 

[Lmbauer2017]

My clay literally can be made into a pot to be fired. Matter of fact thats a good thing to do make pots out of my soil and put potting mix in them.

Yea this stuff doesn’t necessarily “break” up, more like “smoosh” apart. Just gonna keep blasting this area with microbes and molasses lol. I found a couple bags of soil “conditioner” on sale and popped them. Dumped one of these in there just for fun

 

[Oliver Buckle]

I am finding this all slightly confusing, I think it might be a case of "Two countries separated by the same language". In agricultural terms , to me a farmer who runs a harrow over a ploughed field, breaking up the larger clods ready for planting, is tilling the soil. On the other hand one who ploughs a piece of new land is cultivating it, or bringing it under cultivation. I would relate that to the garden practices of hoeing and digging. A 'no-till' garden to me would be one where the gardener does not disturb the soil at all, controlling weeds and adding nutrients with heavy layers of a mulch such as hay. To me those pictures look like an area that has been cultivated and needs tilling.

Breaking up clay, I find the best agent for breaking up clay and making workable soil is weather, especially winter weather and frost, however I find that there are balls of clay that roll about when I hoe and gradually become harder and less destructible , a bit like a potter 'pugging' clay to make it ready for use. On a piece of ground like that I hoe regularly I rake up the lumps that simply won't break up, they are the sort that get cut marks in them where the hoe has hit them. They dry out and go in the incinerator with the next lot of rubbish I burn. The clay will become sintered, the points of particles melt and stick together and it makes something like a coarse terracotta, I smash the big bits by laying it on the concrete and pounding with a sledge hammer, it doesn't take much. I then have a really good soil additive, ash mixed with something like sand, but porous and not heavy like sand so it truly lightens the soil. Wonderful for planting tomatoes, one part that, one part top soil one part manure, one part compost and mix it into the hole when planting, lovely, food and drainage.

 

[DirtMechanic]

I am finding this all slightly confusing, I think it might be a case of "Two countries separated by the same language". In agricultural terms , to me a farmer who runs a harrow over a ploughed field, breaking up the larger clods ready for planting, is tilling the soil. On the other hand one who ploughs a piece of new land is cultivating it, or bringing it under cultivation. I would relate that to the garden practices of hoeing and digging. A 'no-till' garden to me would be one where the gardener does not disturb the soil at all, controlling weeds and adding nutrients with heavy layers of a mulch such as hay. To me those pictures look like an area that has been cultivated and needs tilling.

Breaking up clay, I find the best agent for breaking up clay and making workable soil is weather, especially winter weather and frost, however I find that there are balls of clay that roll about when I hoe and gradually become harder and less destructible , a bit like a potter 'pugging' clay to make it ready for use. On a piece of ground like that I hoe regularly I rake up the lumps that simply won't break up, they are the sort that get cut marks in them where the hoe has hit them. They dry out and go in the incinerator with the next lot of rubbish I burn. The clay will become sintered, the points of particles melt and stick together and it makes something like a coarse terracotta, I smash the big bits by laying it on the concrete and pounding with a sledge hammer, it doesn't take much. I then have a really good soil additive, ash mixed with something like sand, but porous and not heavy like sand so it truly lightens the soil. Wonderful for planting tomatoes, one part that, one part top soil one part manure, one part compost and mix it into the hole when planting, lovely, food and drainage.

Interestingly it is in large part the weather that makes soil. Ours is an Ultisol clay, but unlike the other 4 or so subtypes this one (Udult) is acid due to wet weather washing the liming agents out. Drier areas have an alkalinity problem with the same stuff. Ultisol is named of "Ultimate" or "Last one standing" and so is the finest beat up and pulverized little specs you can imagine. Much finer than silt, it will not settle in a jar test.

 

[Lmbauer2017]

I am finding this all slightly confusing, I think it might be a case of "Two countries separated by the same language". In agricultural terms , to me a farmer who runs a harrow over a ploughed field, breaking up the larger clods ready for planting, is tilling the soil. On the other hand one who ploughs a piece of new land is cultivating it, or bringing it under cultivation. I would relate that to the garden practices of hoeing and digging. A 'no-till' garden to me would be one where the gardener does not disturb the soil at all, controlling weeds and adding nutrients with heavy layers of a mulch such as hay. To me those pictures look like an area that has been cultivated and needs tilling.

Breaking up clay, I find the best agent for breaking up clay and making workable soil is weather, especially winter weather and frost, however I find that there are balls of clay that roll about when I hoe and gradually become harder and less destructible , a bit like a potter 'pugging' clay to make it ready for use. On a piece of ground like that I hoe regularly I rake up the lumps that simply won't break up, they are the sort that get cut marks in them where the hoe has hit them. They dry out and go in the incinerator with the next lot of rubbish I burn. The clay will become sintered, the points of particles melt and stick together and it makes something like a coarse terracotta, I smash the big bits by laying it on the concrete and pounding with a sledge hammer, it doesn't take much. I then have a really good soil additive, ash mixed with something like sand, but porous and not heavy like sand so it truly lightens the soil. Wonderful for planting tomatoes, one part that, one part top soil one part manure, one part compost and mix it into the hole when planting, lovely, food and drainage.

Sorry this thread has evolved tremendously… it started as an actual no-dig garden (cardboard, 6inches of compost on top), but the compost was unfinished, and the location had no light.

Upon further research and advice-seeking I’ve found the best method for me would be a “one-till” approach. So I picked my front yard which receives about 6hrs of light as the new specimen, amend the clay (copious amounts of compost/bagged soil) and turn turn turn, then just keep covering it with more compost/mulch trying to disturb the soil as little as possible over the years. This is all theory though of course! My mindset has changed drastically in the past couple months, then again after joining this forum, and it will probably be different again in a couple more months

 

[Meadowlark]

Do you till your soil every season? There’s seems to be such a big movement in avoiding tilling once your garden is nice and aged… I’m curious as to what the gardening veterans do.

Does 40 plus years veggie gardening qualify me to be a "gardening veteran"? or alternately to be "nice and aged",

Regardless, here's my take part of which I mentioned earlier. I use extensive cover cropping year around, virtually no synthetic sources of fertilizer, and I till according to the needs of my soil which often can be several times a year or alternately maybe no disturbance for several months. All depends on the need.

I do not understand how anyone could make effective use of cover cropping as I do without tilling. No till makes no sense to me. If it's no cover vs no till guess which way I'm jumping?

For example, I definitely shred/till my alfalfa cover crops back into the soil when thy have completed their production cycles...same for summer covers like peas, soybeans, and Sunn Hemp which I'm currently experimenting with as possibly the highest nitrogen fixing agent available to the "veteran" gardener. Tilling is required to get a good seed bed for all my cover crops and also get a good seed bed for the garden veggies that always follow.

I honestly don't appreciate, perhaps its understand, the no tilling fad for home veggie gardeners.

Take a look at this alfalfa cover crop and tell me how you would best get that resource into the soil? How would you follow it up with corn, okra, tomatoes, etc. without tilling? Just makes no sense to me.

 

[Lmbauer2017]

What a spread! You absolutely qualify as a veteran gardener. This is why I ask these questions just to hear everyone’s views. I’m extremely new to this and haven’t even developed a style, but I certainly agree that field would need a solid till . Very cool, I’ve actually never seen cover-cropping on this wide of scale! That’s an exciting possibility for me I’ll keep in my back pocket.

 

[mac1911]

Howdy! First time poster desperately looking for any feedback. I couple months ago I started a no-dig garden after watching Charles Dowding lay down his cardboard, cover it with compost, and then walk on it to pack it down!

So I bought a cubic yard of high quality “double sifted” compost from a reputable landscape company thinking it would be ready to use right away. I now know more than I did back then, and I don’t believe this compost is ready to use. My beds are like slabs of concrete. The first 0.5-1inch is dry, then the remaining is pretty much always moist. 75% of my plants turn yellow, but I’m not sure if it’s from the constantly wet bottom or nitrogen deficiency.

I’ve been periodically transplanting into it by digging a hole and filling it with this same compost but SIFTED and amended with some 5-5-5 organic fert. A little more than half of those transplants are still green! But it could be due to the edge of the bed providing more air to dry out and bring in oxygen?

So I’m thinking about just loosening up the whole bed ONE time and NOT pressing it down like Charles Dowding does. Basically restarting, and maybe take the opportunity to throw in a couple handfuls of some organic fertilizer just in case it is the compost affecting them as well. Below are some pictures of the current status. The yellow plants are green beans, zucchini, dwarf watermelon. The green plants are cucumber and a few tomato transplants around the edges.

View attachment 90781
View attachment 90782
View attachment 90783
View attachment 90784
These cucumbers above are doing great…


View attachment 90786
This is what I sift out of the compost when I use it to plant into now. The plants do great afterwards.

Your compost looks like landscapers trash, lol

We have a few places that mix all their nasty old chemical stained mulch in with all the other junk accumulated around the yard. Then call it compost.

Seldom anything really good comes of it.
Compare it to the few places that offer nice stuff its night and day.
A soil test might be helpful?

 

[Chuck]

Your compost looks like landscapers trash, lol

We have a few places that mix all their nasty old chemical stained mulch in with all the other junk accumulated around the yard. Then call it compost.

Seldom anything really good comes of it.
Compare it to the few places that offer nice stuff its night and day.
A soil test might be helpful?

Perhaps you should read the ENTIRE thread and not make assumptions on the last couple of pictures.

 

[mac1911]

Does 40 plus years veggie gardening qualify me to be a "gardening veteran"? or alternately to be "nice and aged",

Regardless, here's my take part of which I mentioned earlier. I use extensive cover cropping year around, virtually no synthetic sources of fertilizer, and I till according to the needs of my soil which often can be several times a year or alternately maybe no disturbance for several months. All depends on the need.

I do not understand how anyone could make effective use of cover cropping as I do without tilling. No till makes no sense to me. If it's no cover vs no till guess which way I'm jumping?

For example, I definitely shred/till my alfalfa cover crops back into the soil when thy have completed their production cycles...same for summer covers like peas, soybeans, and Sunn Hemp which I'm currently experimenting with as possibly the highest nitrogen fixing agent available to the "veteran" gardener. Tilling is required to get a good seed bed for all my cover crops and also get a good seed bed for the garden veggies that always follow.

I honestly don't appreciate, perhaps its understand, the no tilling fad for home veggie gardeners.

Take a look at this alfalfa cover crop and tell me how you would best get that resource into the soil? How would you follow it up with corn, okra, tomatoes, etc. without tilling? Just makes no sense to me.


View attachment 91116

Reminds me of my Grandmother.
She could grow anything
She always said no need to till if your not using cover crops.
She said tilling often and deep just disturbs whats going on in the soil.
She also said she might pitch fork areas where you cant dig into the soil with your fingers.
My garden is small , this year im trying a winter rye cover crop. My wife hates it cause it looks messy. I might even try to keep it mowed?

 

[mac1911]

Perhaps you should read the ENTIRE thread and not make assumptions on the last couple of pictures.

The original post is what I was quoting and im working through the thread now.
Those pictures in the 1st post look like what the local hacks push off as compost.
I have an example pile now in my yard , from one of the “better” suppliers dumped on me. My own fault for not getting my eyes and hands on it before delivery

 

[cntrlwagdnr]

This is probably me being lazy… but how smallish are you breaking up the clods? These things are kicking my butt… I’ll probably have to just get down and to it by hand. It’s not that big of a space.

Picture below with a 2x4 for size comparison:

View attachment 91077

I am intrigued by the odd looking vertical cut in the brickwork in the first picture. Obviously cut after the wall was built. It looks like an expansion joint, but that would seem to be a bad thing to do in a house wall, because it would tend to start a settlement crack or other break. We don't build homes with bricks here, it's all timber (or steel) frame with siding, with occasionally some bits of concrete block. Bricks are mostly used for decorative cladding or decorative features - and they are expensive. I remember many years ago, back in the UK, bricks were dirt cheap (excuse the pun). Used to live near Bedford. A neighbor built a single car garage and bought a whole truck load direct from London Brick Co., just down the road, then sold the spares to people for their small projects. Paid for the entire load! Done my share of amateur bricklaying.

 

[Lmbauer2017]

The original post is what I was quoting and im working through the thread now.
Those pictures in the 1st post look like what the local hacks push off as compost.
I have an example pile now in my yard , from one of the “better” suppliers dumped on me. My own fault for not getting my eyes and hands on it before delivery

Ugh that's terrible! Yea so back then I didn't really know any better. This stuff is actually really good after buying other test bags. It was just many months unfinished. I've kept a good amount of it in a black trashcan with holes drilled in it in the sun. Watering and turning it about once a week, it's looking reeeally good now. Better than any bagged stuff I've found (for some reason some of the bagged stuff looked like it had sand in it? Not sure if that's a thing...)

 

[mac1911]

Ugh that's terrible! Yea so back then I didn't really know any better. This stuff is actually really good after buying other test bags. It was just many months unfinished. I've kept a good amount of it in a black trashcan with holes drilled in it in the sun. Watering and turning it about once a week, it's looking reeeally good now. Better than any bagged stuff I've found (for some reason some of the bagged stuff looked like it had sand in it? Not sure if that's a thing...)

Sand and stone is “cheap”
Here is whats left of the pile, its mostly sand and small stone.
With remnant's of pallet mixed in.
I have been using it to fill low spots around the yard.

I did call the owner and he came down to look.
He really did not have a answer but did refund my money. This particular place had taken a dive over the past few years.

 

[Lmbauer2017]

Phew… just a quick update if anyone would like to know. I’ve done three rounds of layering a couple inches of compost (sometimes a bag of raised garden bed mix) and turn turn turned… The clumps are honestly as good as it’s gonna get for now. But I did half the work last week, and this week there’s already a monumental difference in soil structure.

I’m going to begin the molasses treatment now. @Chuck I’m assuming I should probably throw down some hardwood mulch or something while this sits in the July/august heat? Texas Native makes a really good partially broken down organic hardwood mulch.

And of course what’s a post without pics!