What kind of caterpillar is this?

[Beverly]

In general, i have never seen butterfly caterpillars kill a food source plant. There are some leaves they won't eat to keep the plant alive. Also you are not going to attract butterflies/caterpillars to your plants if you are spraying BT all over the place and if you do attract them they will possibly die when eating their food source plant.

 

[Chuck]

I can't agree here. Common Rue is a host plant used by some swallowtails, when was the last time you needed any Rue, when was the last time you ate it for dinner? The milkweeds (all of them), are toxic and only are good for feeding butterflies and other pollinators. When was the last time you needed a milkweed to make salad or soup? There are many butterfly host plants that are toxic to humans. I have a list a mile long, but these are two examples. Another good example are the Aristolochias, people don't eat them (unless they want to get good and sick), nothing much at all eats them, except certain swallowtail butterflies that need them to survive.

I completely agree with you, why would anyone kill caterpillars on plants you mentioned above. However, on edible plants such as the OP's tomato plant what do you do? Let it kill the plant? I don't know what kind of caterpillar it was, a future beautiful butterfly or a nondescript moth but either way it has to go. You could remove it and put it on some other plant but what if is a plant the caterpillar doesn't eat. What about loopers on your spring greens. Pick dozens them off one by one or use Bt or do what the OP did, feed them to the wolf spiders?

 

[Chuck]

In general, i have never seen butterfly caterpillars kill a food source plant. There are some leaves they won't eat to keep the plant alive. Also you are not going to attract butterflies/caterpillars to your plants if you are spraying BT all over the place and if you do attract them they will possibly die when eating their food source plant.

You just don't spray Bt willy nilly all over the place. It is only used when there is a problem, not when there might be a problem next week. Bt isn't active very long when in the sunlight. A few hours at most. It is so effective that when a caterpillar eats a single bite it immediately stops feeding and is dead within 4-6 hours. This is why Bt should by sprayed in the late afternoons, to give ALL of the damaging caterpillars a chance to get a bite. I have never seen a butterfly caterpillar kill a grown food source plant either. But the OP's was a little seedling and I have seen caterpillars kill them.

 

[Greenhorn]

All caterpillars are bad. They will eat your plants. Remove and spray with bt.

Go easy here, to say "all caterpillars are bad" is way to broad a generalization . It is understood that many may cause damage to plants but caterpillars form the major part of the diet of many birds and other animals.

Your suggesting they are an imposition for man and his attempts to control the environment to his benefit his needs only at the expense of the natural world. This is how not just a single creature goes extinct but entire food chains.

 

[marlingardener]

Beverly, I've been told that rue is used in some Middle Eastern dishes--personally, I just let the instars have all they want! We have two varieties of milkweed in our pasture for the Monarchs, and we also have several varieties of lantana, which has berries birds love and are toxic to mammals.
We plant lots of vegetables and have fresh farm eggs (the hens are allowed to age gracefully and enjoy life). I don't think I'll be reduced to making "rue soup" soon!

 

[Chuck]

A solution of neem oil and water will kill caterpillars if it is sprayed on what they are eating.

Neem kills everything, Bt only caterpillars. Neem takes a day to kill, Bt a few hours. Neem stays active much longer then Bt. Neem has its place, just not for caterpillars. Spinosad kills everything too but caterpillars faster than neem. Neem is great for scale insects, both hard and soft, while spinosad isn't.

 

[Beverly]

edible plants such as the OP's tomato plant what do you do? Let it kill the plant?

No, you protect your food source. I agree with that 100%, but might have a different way of doing it. I would be the first one to take a caterpillar off a tomato plant and pop it in the fridge.

I have a hard time believing in claims of "perfectly safe" re the BT issue. After all, DDT was "perfectly safe" for a lot of years (a matter of economics), thalyidimide was "perfectly safe" until untold numbers of babies were born without limbs, and how many years were cigarettes "perfectly safe" when they knew they were not. I could go on and on about the "perfectly safe" issue. I follow the science, i follow the self interest, i follow who is paying for the research to be done and if there is not compelling information, i am not buying it and i don't need it. Just a little quirk of mine Thank you for explaining how BT is used because i really had no idea so i have learned something but i am still not buying it. The research in France has been on-going for some years.

 

[Chuck]

No, you protect your food source. I agree with that 100%, but might have a different way of doing it. I would be the first one to take a caterpillar off a tomato plant and pop it in the fridge.

I have a hard time believing in claims of "perfectly safe" re the BT issue. After all, DDT was "perfectly safe" for a lot of years (a matter of economics), thalyidimide was "perfectly safe" until untold numbers of babies were born without limbs, and how many years were cigarettes "perfectly safe" when they knew they were not. I could go on and on about the "perfectly safe" issue. I follow the science, i follow the self interest, i follow who is paying for the research to be done and if there is not compelling information, i am not buying it and i don't need it. Just a little quirk of mine Thank you for explaining how BT is used because i really had no idea so i have learned something but i am still not buying it. The research in France has been on-going for some years.

I would like to read about the French research. Links?

 

[Chuck]

http://www.bt.ucsd.edu/bt_history.html
All of the French research I can find about Bt is its use in GMO corn. The French don't like it and neither do I, but incorporating the DNA of Bacillus thuringensis into corn seeds is a far cry from spraying caterpillars.

 

[CrazyConure]

Go easy here, to say "all caterpillars are bad" is way to broad a generalization . It is understood that many may cause damage to plants but caterpillars form the major part of the diet of many birds and other animals.

Your suggesting they are an imposition for man and his attempts to control the environment to his benefit his needs only at the expense of the natural world. This is how not just a single creature goes extinct but entire food chains.

@Greenhorn please read over the entire thread. It was a complete miscommunication issue. I did not mean that in the slightest. Why do you point out one thing I said earlier, when I clearly corrected myself. I'm not perfect, and neither are you.

 

[Greenhorn]

Don't forget not everyone posts to the - at the moment, at times it might seem like a live conversation but it is not. I might have been composing #19 as you were working on post #15 and you posted first.

No I'm not always right or correct and sometime I use the edit function for that particular reason or maybe adding well defined clarity or accuracy where clarity or accuracy was lacking. You finally got there with a little help on #15, but #2 and #8...

 

[CrazyConure]

I just want to leave this thread behind. I hate seeing people against me. I feel terrible.

 

[Chuck]

I just want to leave this thread behind. I hate seeing people against me. I feel terrible.

Thicken up your skin. We all have different opinions. Just because someone bad mouths you doesn't mean all is lost. Perhaps they didn't understand your position on the matter. And even if they did that doesn't make them absolutely right. You're young, don't give up your beliefs unless someone PROVES YOU WRONG................and they won't

 

[Beverly]

@Chuck Well they did prove CC wrong, because not all caterpillars are bad. As i said it is an opinion not a fact. The person i worry about the most is the OP. People write in for guidance, information and we should be very careful in our responses and the language we use to provide assistance, by using such language as "It is my opinion in the x number of years i have been dealing with this problem, blah blah. I feel that @Greenhorn s comment Go easy here, to say "all caterpillars are bad" is way to broad a generalization . Is exactly right and very good advice. This kind of attitude does not help the OP. It is an authoritative statement that happens to be incorrect. A better way would be to say something like "i am a new gardener and don't have much experience but this is what i would do...". That small change would have made all the difference in the world and would have opened up the thread for other people to offer their suggestions rather than jump down CC's throat. This is the approach that @Greenhorn has taken in the communications i have had with him re slugs and various topics. It requires a certain maturity which hopefully CC will learn and adopt, and leave his ego out of the conversation. Quite frankly if i was new to the forums, asked a question, and got a response like the one that CC put forth, i think i would be looking for a new forum.

 

[Chuck]

@Chuck Well they did prove CC wrong, because not all caterpillars are bad. As i said it is an opinion not a fact. The person i worry about the most is the OP. People write in for guidance, information and we should be very careful in our responses and the language we use to provide assistance, by using such language as "It is my opinion in the x number of years i have been dealing with this problem, blah blah. I feel that @Greenhorn s comment Go easy here, to say "all caterpillars are bad" is way to broad a generalization . Is exactly right and very good advice. This kind of attitude does not help the OP. It is an authoritative statement that happens to be incorrect. A better way would be to say something like "i am a new gardener and don't have much experience but this is what i would do...". That small change would have made all the difference in the world and would have opened up the thread for other people to offer their suggestions rather than jump down CC's throat. This is the approach that @Greenhorn has taken in the communications i have had with him re slugs and various topics. It requires a certain maturity which hopefully CC will learn and adopt, and leave his ego out of the conversation. Quite frankly if i was new to the forums, asked a question, and got a response like the one that CC put forth, i think i would be looking for a new forum.

CC was correct in the assumption that caterpillars are harmful to plants. I think that what we are arguing about is what to do about them. Whether the caterpillars are harming something that is important to food or if they are harmful to ascetics like flowers. I agree that flowers are less important than food. I think food is much more important and that removing them by any means, any harmful entity to this food has much more importance than any ascetic aspect of flowers. We are discussing Bt. Bt is harmless to anything except caterpillars. I also agree that most caterpillars are not fatal to most food source plants. But there are exceptions as I have stated earlier. I think that what we are discussing is a matter of sematics. There are times when Bt is needed. Other times a handpicking is all that is required. I also think that the home gardener needs and must know the difference between a Swallow Tail caterpillar and a Gypsy Moth caterpillar. Without proper knowledge of who is who it doesn't really matter whether Bt is used or not.