Organic VS Chemical

[gary350]

Yes, but the 'filler' is pretty important too. I am collecting leaves to make leaf mold at this time of year, which is probably pretty poor nutritionally, but will retain water on the one hand and allow excess water to drain rapidly on the other. Run off from chemically fertilized fields around here is the colour of the clay, farmers are losing soil at an alarming rate, that 'filler' helps retain it.
Also the 4lb bag of fertilizer will not truly be like factory made fertilizer, what comes out of the factory will be relatively pure, what could be extracted from organic matter will be 'polluted' with all sorts of trace elements, unless your extraction process leaves them behind in the 'filler' or filters them out. Some might not be beneficial, but most will be if they originate from organic matter.
Also note what I said in my post above about degenerative and regenerative processes.
Admittedly the effects from my small garden are tiny compared to a hundred acre farm, but there are an awful lot of small gardens and only so many large farms.

About 25 years ago I raked Oct damp tree leaves and filled about 10 large 30 gallon trash bags. I put them in the garage and saved them for summer. I was going to till them into the garden soil about May 15 but when I opened bags 7 months later leaves had turned to potting soil. WOW I never expected that but it was just what I wanted. Compose makes nice soil when tilled into the garden soil, soft soil makes sweet bell peppers grow very large.

 

[roadrunner]

Like I've said before, I agree plants don't care where they get their nutrients from, but the eco-system does care. Furthermore, I do believe that plants grown in healthy soil are far more nutritious than plants fed nutrients by us humans. Humans don't fertilize the redwood forests, yet the grow to enormous proportions.

Here's another example of someone that practices regenerative gardening, not organic gardening, which I'm not a fan of....

BTW, I'm not trying to convert anyone, but this is the way I do things and I've had much success. My real motivation is to do things that actually improve the environment, especially water quality.

 

[Meadowlark]

The difference, in my experience and verified by soil testing, is the extra added nutrients that are so critical to plant growth that you get from the consistent application of non-synthetic fertilizers.

I rely on alfalfa and field peas for 95% of my fertilizer needs. The side benefits of rotation and weed control and soil conditioning can not be overstated.

You can argue 'till the cows come home, but you will never convince me that synthetic fertilizers provide those benefits. They just don't.

Here is my next spring's garden area currently smothered by a thick alfalfa cover over 12 inches deep.

I'll run another soil test next spring and I fully expect continued 200% plus improvement in soil nutrients.

 

[Meadowlark]

Can you consistently grow cabbage this large and tasty in garden soil that has been planted for 40 plus consecutive years? (note the alfalfa in the background).

If you can and have, please post up pictures.

I will say "I can't" and wouldn't be gardening here in this same space without using natural fertilizers and soil conditioners.

Same question for cauliflower? I could post many, many pictures asking the same question...always with the same answer..." I can't"

 

[davidinsydney]

I only started gardening this year. I have been doing some extensive peer reviewed research on what soil health means and why it is so important. Admittedly, it took me a while to comprehend the basic principles of it.

I have a question relating to indoor plants. How important is soil health when it comes to indoor plants. For example I have an indoor potted orchid and A rubber fig plant. The orchid is Potted in a mixed growing medium including bark, Peat Moss, sphagnum moss and perlite. The rubber plant is grown in mostly Peat Moss and perlite I believe. Most indoor plant guides says to apply a “balanced” synthetic fertiliser every now and then. I understand If we were to garden outdoors, we should be feeding the soil with organics and compost which in turn will feed the plant with the nutrients it needs.

Can the same concept apply to indoor pot plants? For plants like the orchid which are quite picky in terms of growing medium will adding organic fertiliser or compost be a detriment to its growth? should the concept of soil health to indoor pot plants too?

 

[Marck]

"Soil health' is a loaded term, but of course you do want your indoor plants and environment to be 'healthy'.

The 'soil' in a container is really an artificial mix optimized for drainage. You can't mulch heavily as with garden soil and you can't till.
For an established plant new organic matter is usually provided at time of repotting, but nutrients will still leach out of the soil and will need to be replenished.

Usually container fertilizer is done with liquid or time-released granular fertilizer. The source of the nutrients can vary. Some brands obtain there chemicals from petroleum and mining, other more expensive brands extract them from kelp or other plants. However the actual chemicals will be much the same. Sometimes slower-acting precursor compounds are used, but this would not be ideal for container fertilizing. You also can find recipes for making your own liquid fertilizers from a wide variety of ingredients, some of these are called compost teas. The cost, effectiveness and convenience of these products will vary greatly.

The criterion of convenience should not be dismissed lightly. For example, I always recommend a complete fertilizer for container plants. In truth, plants will likely need some nutrients replenished faster than others, but it would not be reasonable for a home gardener or houseplant grower to determine individual nutrient need on an ongoing basis.

 

[roadrunner]

Interesting talk on regenerative farming.

I know a lot of people don't like watching 1+-hour videos, so here's another one that shows just how fertility of the land can be re-established and not only that, but also revive water tables.

Such good information in this 8-minute video

 

[jo198080]

I only started gardening this year. I have been doing some extensive peer reviewed research on what soil health means and why it is so important. Admittedly, it took me a while to comprehend the basic principles of it.

I have a question relating to indoor plants. How important is soil health when it comes to indoor plants. For example I have an indoor potted orchid and A rubber fig plant. The orchid is Potted in a mixed growing medium including bark, Peat Moss, sphagnum moss and perlite. The rubber plant is grown in mostly Peat Moss and perlite I believe. Most indoor plant guides says to apply a “balanced” synthetic fertiliser every now and then. I understand If we were to garden outdoors, we should be feeding the soil with organics and compost which in turn will feed the plant with the nutrients it needs.

Can the same concept apply to indoor pot plants? For plants like the orchid which are quite picky in terms of growing medium will adding organic fertiliser or compost be a detriment to its growth? should the concept of soil health to indoor pot plants too?

I heavily reply on perlite for my indoor plants. See if this article helps.

https://homemakr.org/2021/12/03/perlite-for-plants-and-uses-in-gardening/

 

[gary350]

which is better organic fertilizer or chemical fertilizer?

I am very glad that I took chemistry in school. Nitrogen is N=nitrogen no matter where it comes from. Potassium is K=potassium no matter where it comes from. Phosphorus is P=phosphorus no matter where it comes from. Organic fertilizer is very low fertilizer with about 90% is filler. A 50 lb bag of so called chemical fertilizer is $15 each. A 10 lb bag of organic fertilizer is $20 you need to buy $80 of organic to equal $15 of so called chemical fertilizer. And organic people complain, I gave my plants 1 teaspoon of organic fertilizer plants look like they are dying, What is Wrong? If YOU set down at your dinner table and your only allowed to eat 1 teaspoon of food you will die too. Don't be fooled by the word, Organic. If you want a good organic garden then each plant in your garden needs about 6 whole bags of organic fertilizer on each plant. I buy my fertilizer at farmer supply store, Urea 41-0-0. 21-0-0, 0-20-20, 6-12-12, 15-15-15. Each plant needs its own type fertilizer, you can not feed all plants a general purpose fertilizer and expect to have a good garden. Too much nitrogen on tomatoes & potatoes you get BIG plants and tiny harvest. Other plants are the same way. Beans need 15-15-15. Corn needs 41-0-0. Onion & garlic need 21-0-0 at first when day length is 13 hour switch to 0-20-20. You only need about 1 lb of chemical fertilizer for every 50 ft row or 1 whole bag of organic per 40 ft row. My garden is 40 ft x 60 ft with 21 rows. This year I expect to have 200 lbs of potatoes, 40 lbs of green beans, 250 lbs of tomatoes, 180 ears of corn, 2 bushel baskets of peppers, water melons, cantaloupe, okra, 100 garlic, 400 onions, 300 cucumbers, I don't do rained beds too much work too much extra cost soil too dry in TN we have 100° summers. FALL cold weather crops are, broccoli, cauliflower, pac Choy, kale, potatoes. If you have a tiny garden farm fertilizer in 50 lb bags will last you 15 years.

 

[Chuck]

Nitrogen is a gas compromising about 80% of earths atmosphere. Basically all nitrogen comes from the same place but that is about all that synthetic and organic nitrogen have in common. Natural nitrogen is fixed by bacteria, Rhizobium, by organic matter turning into minerals and nitrogen is released when organic matter is broken down by soil microbes. Synthetic fertilizers are made possible by the Haber-Bosch process in which atmospheric hydrogen and nitrogen are changed into ammonia. Basically, all synthetic nitrogen fertilizers are made from anhydrous ammonia. All synthetic fertilizer molecules are negatively charged. This is important because of what is called CEC or Cation Exchange Capacity. Soil molecules are also negatively charged. Natural or organic nitrogen molecules are positively charged. This is why it takes a much higher percentage volume wise of synthetic nitrogen than organic nitrogen to achieve the same results. This is why the NPK numbers on synthetic fertilizers are always much higher than organic fertilizers. It is also why there is such a great pollution problem when using synthetic fertilizers. Opposites attract and this is what happens when using organic/natural fertilizers. The soil and the fertilizer microbes attract each other while synthetic fertilizers and soil microbes repel each other. In actuality when you buy a bag of synthetic fertilizer you are paying for a product which will not and cannot all be used. It either gasses off or it disappears during watering. With organics you end up with very close to a 100% use of product. As was stated, nitrogen is nitrogen, but what wasn't said is the question of what kind of nitrogen is best. What it comes down to is what would you as a gardener prefer. A fertilizer which actually builds soil or a fertilizer that doesn't?

The NPK numbers on a bag of fertilizer mean that each number is the amount by volume of product inside the bag. So if you buy a bag of 15-15-15 synthetic fertilizer or a bag of 3-2-3 which will be the most cost productive in the long term? When all of the synthetics have leached away and left behind harmful mineral salts and the organic fertilizer has left behind its organic fillers and residual NPK which do you think is better?

 

[gary350]

Nitrogen is a gas compromising about 80% of earths atmosphere. Basically all nitrogen comes from the same place but that is about all that synthetic and organic nitrogen have in common. Natural nitrogen is fixed by bacteria, Rhizobium, by organic matter turning into minerals and nitrogen is released when organic matter is broken down by soil microbes. Synthetic fertilizers are made possible by the Haber-Bosch process in which atmospheric hydrogen and nitrogen are changed into ammonia. Basically, all synthetic nitrogen fertilizers are made from anhydrous ammonia. All synthetic fertilizer molecules are negatively charged. This is important because of what is called CEC or Cation Exchange Capacity. Soil molecules are also negatively charged. Natural or organic nitrogen molecules are positively charged. This is why it takes a much higher percentage volume wise of synthetic nitrogen than organic nitrogen to achieve the same results. This is why the NPK numbers on synthetic fertilizers are always much higher than organic fertilizers. It is also why there is such a great pollution problem when using synthetic fertilizers. Opposites attract and this is what happens when using organic/natural fertilizers. The soil and the fertilizer microbes attract each other while synthetic fertilizers and soil microbes repel each other. In actuality when you buy a bag of synthetic fertilizer you are paying for a product which will not and cannot all be used. It either gasses off or it disappears during watering. With organics you end up with very close to a 100% use of product. As was stated, nitrogen is nitrogen, but what wasn't said is the question of what kind of nitrogen is best. What it comes down to is what would you as a gardener prefer. A fertilizer which actually builds soil or a fertilizer that doesn't?

The NPK numbers on a bag of fertilizer mean that each number is the amount by volume of product inside the bag. So if you buy a bag of 15-15-15 synthetic fertilizer or a bag of 3-2-3 which will be the most cost productive in the long term? When all of the synthetics have leached away and left behind harmful mineral salts and the organic fertilizer has left behind its organic fillers and residual NPK which do you think is better?

If synthetic fertilizer is bad then why are all the people on earth still alive. If it was not for synthetic fertilizer farmers would only be able to feed 10% of earths population.

 

[Chuck]

If synthetic fertilizer is bad then why are all the people on earth still alive. If it was not for synthetic fertilizer farmers would only be able to feed 10% of earths population.

Why are synthetic fertilizers bad? Sustainability. Modern farming techniques have enabled synthetic fertilizers a degree of sustainability but the time will come when a plateau in the use of synthetics will be reached. Today many large farms are beginning to see this and are transforming from synthetics to natural methods. No one doubts that synthetics have enabled a huge increase in the worlds food supply but just how long can this continue. Even with no till techniques it still requires an ever increasing use of synthetic fertilizers to produce the same amount of product. But we are not talking about large farm conglomerates consisting of 1000's or 10,000's of acres, we are talking about small farms and gardens. The best example I know of on this forum are the methods of @Meadowlark, who, I believe will not let any synthetic fertilizer of any kind on his property. I would like to see his production numbers as compared to yours.

 

[Marck]

There is a lot to unpack in this thread. Frankly, I'm not going to unpack most if it, but I will make a few points.
Some of this is may be repeating what is already said, but it may be helpful to soem to organize this into a single post.

Use of fossil fuels as a source for product manufacture (fuels, fertilizers, pesticides, plastics, etc) is a growing concern due to climate change.

Fertilizer runoff is also a concern. Reduction of overall fertilizer use, and an increased use of slow-release formulations can both help with this.

Depletion of mineral resources (petroleum, phosphorus, etc.) is another concern that may make current use of chemical fertilizer untenable in the future.

Synthetic fertilizers have certainly increased crop production since the mid-20th century, and a variet oy of modern agricultural and horticultural technologies are largely dependent on their use. However, there are concern about sustainablility and unintended consequences resulting for their use..

The difference between organic Nitrogen and inorganic Nitrogen causes endless confusion. This is partly due to the multiple meanings of the word 'organic'. For now, disregard the meaning of 'organic' that is a very roughly synonymous with 'sustainable', 'eco-friendly', or 'green'. The earlier meaning of organic from chemistry is what concerns us here. 'Organic' refers to chemical compounds that contain Carbon-Hydrogen bonds.

These two charts may help.

Differences between organic Nitrogen and inorganic Nitrogen

The Nitrogen Cycle

Several points to note here.

If one were to follow a single atom of Nitrogen through the Nitrogen cycle, it would be considered both organic and inorganic at different stages of the cycle.

Plants can only directly use inorganic Nitrogen in the form of Nitrate Ions or Ammonium ions.

Yes, synthetic fertilizer is usually composed of inorganic compounds, which is why it is fast-acting, but as we can see, from the Nitrogen cycle, inorganic Nitrogen is continuously produced from organic mater by natural, bacterial processes.

• Ammonium is a positively charged cation and its uptake lowers pH
• Nitrate is negatively charged and its uptake raises pH
However both ions and the processes that create them are occurring all the time in soil.
In nature, the final ratio of Nitrate to Ammonium and its effects on pH is largely result of climate and soil chemistry...

One more graph

Most of these synthetic fertilizers are inorganic, but synthetic Urea and UAN solutions are organic. When these synthetic compounds are applied to soil, they too are subject to the bacterial processes shown in the Nitrogen Cycle.

 

[gary350]

Why are synthetic fertilizers bad? Sustainability. Modern farming techniques have enabled synthetic fertilizers a degree of sustainability but the time will come when a plateau in the use of synthetics will be reached. Today many large farms are beginning to see this and are transforming from synthetics to natural methods. No one doubts that synthetics have enabled a huge increase in the worlds food supply but just how long can this continue. Even with no till techniques it still requires an ever increasing use of synthetic fertilizers to produce the same amount of product. But we are not talking about large farm conglomerates consisting of 1000's or 10,000's of acres, we are talking about small farms and gardens. The best example I know of on this forum are the methods of @Meadowlark, who, I believe will not let any synthetic fertilizer of any kind on his property. I would like to see his production numbers as compared to yours.

What do you think about home made nitrogen fertilizer. Pee in empty 1 gallon milk jugs all winter & save it, save wood ash from, same organic material. Mix 1/3 of each it becomes 10-4-6 fertilizer in about 2 days according to online information.

 

[Chuck]

What do you think about home made nitrogen fertilizer. Pee in empty 1 gallon milk jugs all winter & save it, save wood ash from, same organic material. Mix 1/3 of each it becomes 10-4-6 fertilizer in about 2 days according to online information.

The only objection I have is about the wood ash. It is quite alkaline and if your soils are alkaline to begin with its use may be detrimental. Urine has been used as a fertilizer for a very long time and it is full of macro and micro nutrients. Just be sure to dilute it, about 1 part urine to about 5 parts water for mature plants and 1 to 10 for seedlings.

p.s. use a wide mouthed jug to collect