Plants Distinguish Natural Soil Nitrogen from Synthetic Nitrogen

[Meadowlark]

It has been said here that nitrogen is all the same regardless of source. Science disagrees with that. Scientists can distinguish between synthetic nitrogen and natural soil nitrogen in plants.

If scientists can do that, doesn't it follow that those plants also not only can distinguish but do so consistently.

"Using sensitive laboratory equipment, previous researchers associated slight variations in heavier nitrogen (15N) and oxygen (18O) isotopes with various nitrogen sources and the microbial nitrogen cycling processes of nitrification and denitrification.

"We can think of nitrogen and oxygen isotopes as a fingerprint to identify the sources of nitrate and how it's being recycled by microbial processes," Yu said. "Different sources have different isotope ratios, just like humans have different fingerprints."

Yu added that nitrate derived from inorganic fertilizer has a lower isotope ratio, with fewer heavy nitrogens and oxygens, than bulk soil organic nitrogen sources."

"In a series of studies, that group used labeled isotope techniques to trace nitrogen uptake in corn plants, finding that less than half of fertilizer nitrogen is used by the plants; instead, corn took up most of its nitrogen from the soil."


The legacy of corn nitrogen fertilizer: Study shows lengthy impact in tile drained systems

 

[YumYum]

That is interesting. I guess a scientific lab may be able to distinquish between an organically produced nitrate and a synthetically produced nitrate molecule but a soil testing lab is not going to do that.

Are you saying a plant would choose to absorb this heavier weighted nitrate molecule (organically produced) over a lighter weighted one (syntheticall produced) and just leave it behind? I don't think the plant is going to care which type is available. It is still nitrate.

Also I don't think Just because one molecule is a little heavier than the other means it's any better or worser for the plant or any better for the persons health eating it or even the taste of the food. I absolutely could be wrong but I just don't see it.

 

[Meadowlark]

No, @YumYum, in this thread, I'm only refuting the claim that nitrogen is nitrogen no matter the source. Clearly science does not support that claim.

Are you saying a plant would choose to absorb this heavier weighted nitrate molecule (organically produced) over a lighter weighted one (syntheticall produced) ...

I'm not saying it...the scientists are saying it, "finding that less than half of fertilizer nitrogen is used by the plants; instead, corn took up most of its nitrogen from the soil."

...Also I don't think Just because one molecule is a little heavier than the other means it's any better or worser for the plant or any better for the persons health eating it or even the taste of the food. I absolutely could be wrong but I just don't see it.

That is opinion. My opinion (and I also could be wrong), from my personal experience, is that yes indeed the organically sourced nitrogen results in superior tasting produce, superior nutrient dense produce, and is healthier for humans.

The taste part is not even disputable, in my mind. The nutrient density is also clearly higher as indicated by soil test labs measuring the nutrient density probability of both sources of nitrogen. The health aspect is being studied as we speak. For now, I'm not aware of scientific studies showing one source superior to human health than the other, but there are a lot of claims out there that organic sourced produce yields healthier food than others.

I prefer to error on the side that chooses organic sourcing as I can see zero risk of doing so and considerable risk of taking the other option. To each their own.

 

[redback]

I haven't been party to earlier discussions on this topic so excuse my ignorance if all this has been said before. The synthetic nitrogen is actually ammonia or urea - isn't it?

I'll do some research, but I can't see how plants wouldn't distinguish between products artificially manufactured by a high energy industrial process and the nitrogen/hydrogen of the air. Well aerated soils are a trademark of organic soil conditioning.

 

[Meadowlark]

... The synthetic nitrogen is actually ammonia or urea - isn't it?

I'm certainly not an expert on your question...but yes, it is my simple understanding that using the Haber-Bosch process yields anhydrous ammonia which then is processed into various synthetic nitrogen fertilizers as illustrated below.

Synthetic Nitrogen Fertilizer in the U.S. - farmdoc daily

Sarah Sellars and Vander Nunes - Sarah Sellars - We provide background on nitrogen fertilizer production in the United States, thereby aiding in understanding conservation concerns with nitrogen production. Nitrogen is the most abundant gas in the atmosphere and makes up approximately 78% of the...

farmdocdaily.illinois.edu

 

[redback]

Look at 'Living Soil" YouTube presentation.
Realize that the soil has billions of microbes that grow on the roots of legumes and process the air's nitrogen into something that legumes can use. These microbes are living things that know more about nitrogen processing than we do. If you plant cover crops of legumes plus a dozen or so other types of plant the resultant soil is teeming with life. You'll never need to add nitrogen again.

Synthetic nitrogen has been 'chelated', so it dissolves in water and is drunk by the plants. It also gets washed into rivers a lot and needs to be renewed each year.

Do I think microbes know the difference between the two types of nitrogen? Yes - a billion times yes.

 

[cpp gardener]

Soil microbes and sensitive lab equipment may be able to differentiate between the sources of nitrogen, but the plant itself doesn’t. That’s why hydroponic systems work. A plant, some water, synthetic nutrients and light.
Many university studies have shown that the nutrient value for organically grown vegetables and ones fertilized with synthetic fertilizers are, for all intents and purposes, the same. I, for one, can’t tell the difference between them. A difference between fresh-picked and grocery store, yes, but that‘s a completely different discussion.

 

[Meadowlark]

...Realize that the soil has billions of microbes that grow on the roots of legumes and process the air's nitrogen into something that legumes can use. These microbes are living things that know more about nitrogen processing than we do.

There is a very interesting recent relevant scientific study that discovered that nitrogen fixing legumes have an internal mechanism that shuts down their nitrogen fixation (converting atmospheric nitrogen to usable nitrogen for plants) when in the presence of certain abundant levels of soil nitrogen.

From the below reference, "A genetic "off switch" that shuts down the process in which legume plants convert atmospheric nitrogen into nutrients has been identified for the first time by a team of international scientists."

Discovery of the "off-switch" has enabled scientists to remove it in model legumes, ensuring they continued to fix nitrogen regardless of the soil environment. This in turn could increase crop growth and yield while reducing the need for synthetic fertilizers.

Reference:

MSN

We certainly live in interesting times!

 

[YumYum]

Microbes must have an organic material to convert to plant available nutrients whereas if you use synthetics, it bypasses the microbes completely and those are already plant available. The microbes are the ones who suffer when using synthetics, not the plant. If you only want to use organics, then microbes are very important and the more organic things you feed them, the more they populate and thrive.

Nitrogen is only one of the nutrients and is only an example. Phosphates, sulfates, boron, etc are still only one thing when the plant uptakes it, no matter where it comes from. That is science and it would be hard to convince me otherwise. Hydroponics as stated is a perfect example of this.

If you want nutrient dense food, then the right ratio of nutrient uptake by the plant no matter where it comes from is key along with the pH level and other factors. You can't really compare between varieties because the varieties they try to grow now are geared more toward disease resistance and heavy yields along with earlier harvest times so flavor and nutrient density is last.

 

[redback]

Soil microbes and sensitive lab equipment may be able to differentiate between the sources of nitrogen, but the plant itself doesn’t

When you plant a seed, it releases its own microbes into the soil. The plant and its microbes are in communication.

Do you realize these same microbes are in you. You don't need to direct them, but they are digesting your food as you read this - and they rebuild and renew your body completely seven times in a lifetime.

 

[redback]

Many university studies have shown that the nutrient value for organically grown vegetables and ones fertilized with synthetic fertilizers are, for all intents and purposes, the same. I, for one, can’t tell the difference between them. A difference between fresh-picked and grocery store, yes, but that‘s a completely different discussion.

Old, deteriorated organic produce is the same as old, deteriorated store produce. Its lost all its sugar and turned to starch and then gone moldy. I only eat fresh organic food.
I've got lots of peer reviewed articles stating categorically that industrial monocultures are responsible for low levels of nutrients and therefore have caused the current auto-immune disease epidemic.

 

[redback]

The microbes are the ones who suffer when using synthetics, not the plant.

You have the same microbes in you. When you kill the soil microbes and eat the food from dead soil complete with their high dosage of herbicide, pesticide and chemical fertilizer you are damaging your own gut.

 

[Oliver Buckle]

industrial monocultures are responsible for low levels of nutrients and therefore have caused the current auto-immune disease epidemic.

I don't think they are the sole cause, but I would expect that to contribute. I would expect exposure to things like car exhausts or plastics which contain chemicals that were not around pre the industrial age to be one culprit, and it is certainly a side effect of coronavirus.
I saw that original post saying 'Nitrogen is nitrogen' and thought 'No it's not', I had seen research some time ago where plants were distinguishing between the same chemicals from different sources, but I couldn't remember enough about it to reply with authority. Isotopic variation in the elements may play a part, but in complex organic molecules there are probably many isotopes on a molecular level as well, the organically sourced elements are likely to be combined in a molecule.

 

[redback]

Soil science and medical research have combined to show that we have the same biology as nature and are indeed a part of nature.
Inorganic nitrogen will kill soil life over time. The mycorrhizal fungi are the main casualty. This fungus extends the root zone of plants seven-fold. It also adjusts soil pH and so greatly increases nutrient uptake in plant roots that it makes plants very resilient against disease and pest attack.
In essence, inorganic nitrogen causes weak plants that then need pest and disease control. Inorganic fertilizer gives rise to the need for pesticides and more inorganic fertilizer.
Modern farmers are dropping all fertilizers in favor of microbial feeds such as lacto-bacillus. In so doing they are massively cutting their input costs and greatly increasing their take-home profit.

 

[Heirloom farmer1969]

Soil science and medical research have combined to show that we have the same biology as nature and are indeed a part of nature.
Inorganic nitrogen will kill soil life over time. The mycorrhizal fungi are the main casualty. This fungus extends the root zone of plants seven-fold. It also adjusts soil pH and so greatly increases nutrient uptake in plant roots that it makes plants very resilient against disease and pest attack.
In essence, inorganic nitrogen causes weak plants that then need pest and disease control. Inorganic fertilizer gives rise to the need for pesticides and more inorganic fertilizer.
Modern farmers are dropping all fertilizers in favor of microbial feeds such as lacto-bacillus. In so doing they are massively cutting their input costs and greatly increasing their take-home profit.

Done some reading on lactobacillus. Interesting!! First I've heard of it.