NE Oklahoma

[Lkillebrrw]

New to forum, been gardening for 9 years. Two yrs ago moved to NE Oklahoma and retired on 1.5 acres of tight rocky clay soil in north Okmulgee county. We Had soil tests done and tried amending and fertilizing soil to no satisfactory effect. However we do have beautiful views from our little place. Just lousy dirt, LOL!

Strongly considering going the Back to Eden approach. I can get bulk compost reasonably, and chipped trees from city of Tulsa for the price of going and getting it. Any advice in this approach would be appreciated. I’m going to “build” the beds in September hoping they will be ready for spring vegetable planting.

We also planted 6 - 14’ Lakota pecan trees, on our breezy hill. We dug huge holes and put lots of bagged soil around roots, they seem to be doing good.

Thanks for your help in advance.
LK

 

[DirtMechanic]

Welcome!

A couple questions, what amendments were you using and also what fertilizer?

Also how are you set for watering?

Also, not everybody is aware that pecan trees need zinc. My grandmother used to bury metal coffee cans under her pecans but there are better options now.

Woodchips on the surface are fine, Just do not bury them in a more is better approach because it is only the top 2 or so inches where the soil\atmosphere barrier is that supports all that goes on underneath and above it. Take a plan where adding a thin layer in the fall and spring provides a continous supply of organic material and give yourself 2 or 3 years to expect the beds to really settle in. The wood chips are just slow. Leaf compost, or other compost would be a better wayto start the beds and bring the chips in on top.

 

[Chuck]

I have issues with what you have done in regards to the pecan trees. IMO one should NEVER plant trees in other than it's natural soils. Here's why. The trees naturally will do great in well amended soil but the object is for the trees to spread their roots far and wide and deep. With heavily amended or fertile foreign soil they will not. They will grow in circles staying in that good soil. A small lightly fertilized hole is paramount for long lasting tree growth. Instead place your fertilizer on the soils surface out to the drip line regularly. Pecans have a naturally occurring tap root which goes DEEP. It takes a LOT of water unless you have a shallow water table. MAKE SURE that you didn't plant the trees too deep. Make sure that the root flare is visible and ALWAYS keep your mulch away from it. About your soil. Amending an acre of soil can get expensive. What ranchers and farmers do here is apply molasses a couple of times a year for a couple of years. This tremendously increases the soil microbes and micro-organisms which are needed for the plants uptake of nutrients. You will notice a big difference a couple of months after after the first application. They break down organic matter which plants feed on. If you use chemical fertilizers in a few years there will be mineral salts build up and you will be back where you started except worse. Chemical/oil based fertilizers only feed the plant. They harm the soil. I am sure you have heard of worn out farms or worn out soil. Non organic fertilizers are the cause.

 

[Becky]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Lkillebrrw]

Thanks for the helpful reply,

amendments:
1st yr Lime,
2nd yr compost and sandy loam.
Fertilizer 10-20-10.

Watering: soaker hoses when plants are up. Sprinkler on hose when plants are sprouting.
On occasion, have watered down rows. Most watering is done in early morning or late evening.
LK

Welcome!

A couple questions, what amendments were you using and also what fertilizer?

Also how are you set for watering?

Also, not everybody is aware that pecan trees need zinc. My grandmother used to bury metal coffee cans under her pecans but there are better options now.

Woodchips on the surface are fine, Just do not bury them in a more is better approach because it is only the top 2 or so inches where the soil\atmosphere barrier is that supports all that goes on underneath and above it. Take a plan where adding a thin layer in the fall and spring provides a continous supply of organic material and give yourself 2 or 3 years to expect the beds to really settle in. The wood chips are just slow. Leaf compost, or other compost would be a better wayto start the beds and bring the chips in on top.

 

[DirtMechanic]

Thanks for the helpful reply,

amendments:
1st yr Lime,
2nd yr compost and sandy loam.
Fertilizer 10-20-10.

Watering: soaker hoses when plants are up. Sprinkler on hose when plants are sprouting.
On occasion, have watered down rows. Most watering is done in early morning or late evening.
LK

What is the PH naturally? @Chuck is right about the molasses. Quantity is key though. He told me in another post 4-7 gallons of molasses per acre. I was not using that much. Well at once anyway. I spray a lot over time I guess. That idea of growing your own biological compost in the soil is basically like growing Milorganite without the metal and other contaminants from the sewage. It is also the underpinning of Terra Preta which literally grows in size over time because the the depth and volume of this activity. Wood chips are also adding to this carbon content like the Terra Preta idea, just slowly, like a forest litter works. And it looks like litter so tough to put on a lawn for aesthetic reasons.

One way to get there is here. This company is an example of a good organically oriented lawn soil lineup, but they have garden uses too. They are too far away from you to make freight reasonable, but it is good to observe how they blend humic acids and soil conditioners with naturally fertilizing components. It is a leonardite based humic line should you need to look into the sources which I believe are an Arizona mine. You may care to order dry powdered humic acid from other sources and mix it yourself. Fulvic acids I believe, still comes as a liquid.

You will want to use some protein to start though. The bugs need amino acids from the protein. It is the amino acids which make up proteins that are used to make the bodies of the soil biology. And chemical fertilizers (salts) will kill them off and starve them off. Protein is usually a pretty big component of organic based fertilizer like blood meal. You can guess the protein content as a facto of x5 or x6 the N stated on the bag if it is organic. I use soybean meal since it is roughly 48% protein for this reason and the soil bio feeds on it as well as being a tightwad. The N is roughly a division of 5.25 into that 48% for soybean.

I have heavy red clay here in Alabama and molassess, moisture, and a little organic fertilizer will soften the soil in my garden enough to drop a man sized metal rod into the clay- by hand.

 

[Lkillebrrw]

Chuck,
Thanks for your concern, I agree with your statement about planting trees in their natural soil generally. Specifically, though trees do not grow on this hill, the pecan grower recommended doing what we did when he delivered the trees. I talked to him at length on the phone and went with his recommendations. We soaked the rootball, unwound the taproot as best we could and placed it in a post hole dug hole in the center of the main hole. Back filled with sand and compost. Supported the trees with 8’ bamboo and cloth ties for a year until the roots had time to grow out. Watered weekly the first year even through winter, 2nd yr we had a lot of rain and watering wasn’t as big a concern. This year each tree is bearing a few nuts, and seem to be growing well. This is not native soil for pecan trees. Each tree gets half a coffee can of granular 10-20-10 around the outside of the root ball in early spring and early autumn. They will never be super producers in our dirt. We did transplant plant a couple of native redbuds, at the same time... they are not thriving LOL. Go figure.

I’ve never heard of molasses treatment, and am looking for more natural ways of treating our yard/garden/trees. I grew up in a large progressive farming family, my dad planted the first round up resistant cotton in Oklahoma. I’ve not been involved with the farming business in 20 + years. Most successful modern farms are now no till or minimal till. When I was involved in it we plowed 4or 5 Times between crops.

I appreciate your comments and look forward to learning from your experience.

I have issues with what you have done in regards to the pecan trees. IMO one should NEVER plant trees in other than it's natural soils. Here's why. The trees naturally will do great in well amended soil but the object is for the trees to spread their roots far and wide and deep. With heavily amended or fertile foreign soil they will not. They will grow in circles staying in that good soil. A small lightly fertilized hole is paramount for long lasting tree growth. Instead place your fertilizer on the soils surface out to the drip line regularly. Pecans have a naturally occurring tap root which goes DEEP. It takes a LOT of water unless you have a shallow water table. MAKE SURE that you didn't plant the trees too deep. Make sure that the root flare is visible and ALWAYS keep your mulch away from it. About your soil. Amending an acre of soil can get expensive. What ranchers and farmers do here is apply molasses a couple of times a year for a couple of years. This tremendously increases the soil microbes and micro-organisms which are needed for the plants uptake of nutrients. You will notice a big difference a couple of months after after the first application. They break down organic matter which plants feed on. If you use chemical fertilizers in a few years there will be mineral salts build up and you will be back where you started except worse. Chemical/oil based fertilizers only feed the plant. They harm the soil. I am sure you have heard of worn out farms or worn out soil. Non organic fertilizers are the cause.

 

[Lkillebrrw]

PH at first soil test was 5.8, last yrs (a yr after lime amendment) the soil test was 6.5. I can live with 6.5. The organic material was on the low side on both tests. That kinda surprised me on the second test. We are seeing some worm castings after rains now. Early on not so much.

Our former home was rich sandy loam river bottom, now we are on a clay rocky hill. I used to think I was a good gardener, this place has challenged that notion. I may have to resort to raised beds and imported dirt, but before I do that, will try to build the soil.

Thanks for the links, love good information.
LK

What is the PH naturally? @Chuck is right about the molasses. Quantity is key though. He told me in another post 4-7 gallons of molasses per acre. I was not using that much. Well at once anyway. I spray a lot over time I guess. That idea of growing your own biological compost in the soil is basically like growing Milorganite without the metal and other contaminants from the sewage. It is also the underpinning of Terra Preta which literally grows in size over time because the the depth and volume of this activity. Wood chips are also adding to this carbon content like the Terra Preta idea, just slowly, like a forest litter works. And it looks like litter so tough to put on a lawn for aesthetic reasons.

One way to get there is here. This company is an example of a good organically oriented lawn soil lineup, but they have garden uses too. They are too far away from you to make freight reasonable, but it is good to observe how they blend humic acids and soil conditioners with naturally fertilizing components. It is a leonardite based humic line should you need to look into the sources which I believe are an Arizona mine. You may care to order dry powdered humic acid from other sources and mix it yourself. Fulvic acids I believe, still comes as a liquid.

You will want to use some protein to start though. The bugs need amino acids from the protein. It is the amino acids which make up proteins that are used to make the bodies of the soil biology. And chemical fertilizers (salts) will kill them off and starve them off. Protein is usually a pretty big component of organic based fertilizer like blood meal. You can guess the protein content as a facto of x5 or x6 the N stated on the bag if it is organic. I use soybean meal since it is roughly 48% protein for this reason and the soil bio feeds on it as well as being a tightwad. The N is roughly a division of 5.25 into that 48% for soybean.

I have heavy red clay here in Alabama and molassess, moisture, and a little organic fertilizer will soften the soil in my garden enough to drop a man sized metal rod into the clay- by hand.

What is the PH naturally? @Chuck is right about the molasses. Quantity is key though. He told me in another post 4-7 gallons of molasses per acre. I was not using that much. Well at once anyway. I spray a lot over time I guess. That idea of growing your own biological compost in the soil is basically like growing Milorganite without the metal and other contaminants from the sewage. It is also the underpinning of Terra Preta which literally grows in size over time because the the depth and volume of this activity. Wood chips are also adding to this carbon content like the Terra Preta idea, just slowly, like a forest litter works. And it looks like litter so tough to put on a lawn for aesthetic reasons.

One way to get there is here. This company is an example of a good organically oriented lawn soil lineup, but they have garden uses too. They are too far away from you to make freight reasonable, but it is good to observe how they blend humic acids and soil conditioners with naturally fertilizing components. It is a leonardite based humic line should you need to look into the sources which I believe are an Arizona mine. You may care to order dry powdered humic acid from other sources and mix it yourself. Fulvic acids I believe, still comes as a liquid.

You will want to use some protein to start though. The bugs need amino acids from the protein. It is the amino acids which make up proteins that are used to make the bodies of the soil biology. And chemical fertilizers (salts) will kill them off and starve them off. Protein is usually a pretty big component of organic based fertilizer like blood meal. You can guess the protein content as a facto of x5 or x6 the N stated on the bag if it is organic. I use soybean meal since it is roughly 48% protein for this reason and the soil bio feeds on it as well as being a tightwad. The N is roughly a division of 5.25 into that 48% for soybean.

I have heavy red clay here in Alabama and molassess, moisture, and a little organic fertilizer will soften the soil in my garden enough to drop a man sized metal rod into the clay- by hand.

 

[DirtMechanic]

You are welcome.

One small detail, and it is a funky @Chuck level tidbit, is along the lines of that a lot of sweets attract fungus. Now they come to feed on bacteria and such just like the earthworms do, and you want the hyphae, which draws up the water to the surface, but lets say it gets out of hand one day. What do you do? One suggestion for infection is to keep Honey on hand, and keep on sprayin'. The water is a major nutrient and you can tweak your mix as you grow along.

Edit: You can use granulated sugar and put it out via spreader. But then you have to add back the goodness in Molasses via some soil appropriate micro nutrient combo

 

[La Garden]

Welcome.
For the area you are in that looks darn dry. Been having localized drought?

 

[DirtMechanic]

Welcome.
For the area you are in that looks darn dry. Been having localized drought?

Won't matter when the fungal mat starts growing under the soil.

 

[Sheal]

Welcome to the forum Lkillebrrw.

 

[Lkillebrrw]

Welcome.
For the area you are in that looks darn dry. Been having localized drought?

No, we’ve had a lot of rain... that pic was taken during winter, was the only pic I had on my phone of the back of the place.