I have the feeling my soil is dead, need advices.

[fred bleuzet]

Hi everyone,
I live in a solid urban location (northern virginia), I tried to do gardening and it has never really worked. Every year I'm trying different things in the hope that one day it suddenly works. I'd rather be organic, else what's the point, I'm trying real hard to stay away from chemicals.
This year I am focusing on the soil food web thing where you need to have aerobic critters in the soil to be productive and have good soil structure for optimally nutritious veggies, although right now I'd be happy if anything grows at all. So now I'm not watering directly from the tap, I let the water rest about 12h before using it in the hope that the chlorine disappears; and I started a compost pile from the weed growing in the garden and also grass and few tree leaves. The pile is fairly green. I heard Elaine Ingham: multiply the aerobic microbes with compost and spread over the garden.
I'm trying to follow those 18 days compost systems (like

I like Geoff explanations) so I keep the pile wet, I turn it every evening and I cover it with a tarp like on the video. It looks straightforward, I don't think I have that part wrong.

Today I am panicking: after a week of doing this the pile is still cold, everything is green, at 1/3 the time it still looks like the first day.
That made me think that if composting is not happening is because I don't even have bacterias to get the composting started? Like my garden soil is dead.

Does anybody have any suggestion for bringing life to it? I don't have the experience.

fred

 

[Meadowlark]

Welcome @fred bleuzet

... I'd rather be organic, else what's the point, I'm trying real hard to stay away from chemicals.

Agree completely. I've been doing chemical free gardening for many years...and it is worth it!

... So now I'm not watering directly from the tap, I let the water rest about 12h before using it in the hope that the chlorine disappears;
fred

Not long enough, not nearly long enough. Depending on concentration, it can take up to 5 days to fully evaporate.
Leave it uncovered while waiting.

... I started a compost pile from the weed growing in the garden and also grass and few tree leaves. The pile is fairly green. I heard Elaine Ingham: multiply the aerobic microbes with compost and spread over the garden.
I'm trying to follow those 18 days compost systems (like

I like Geoff explanations) so I keep the pile wet, I turn it every evening and I cover it with a tarp like on the video. It looks straightforward, I don't think I have that part wrong.

Today I am panicking: after a week of doing this the pile is still cold, everything is green, at 1/3 the time it still looks like the first day.
That made me think that if composting is not happening is because I don't even have bacterias to get the composting started? Like my garden soil is dead.

Does anybody have any suggestion for bringing life to it? I don't have the experience.

18 days seems unrealistic to me. If you want to fire it up, go to a box store/garden center and buy a bag or two, depending on size of your pile, of Composted Cow Manure or other animal composted manure. Spread it over your pile in a minimum of 3 inches thick layer. Continue your watering and turning the pile...but every day isn't required. It will heat up. I never cover mine and it heats up quickly to about 135 deg F on the surface.

What size are you planning for a garden area?
One thing you can do immediately is plant a cover crop...I'm guessing clover and cereal rye would still be viable in your locale. Turn it under next spring, add your compost to the garden site, work it all in, and you are well on your way.

p.s. a soil test, especially when starting out, would be very beneficial to you.

 

[Meadowlark]

I'd also like to encourage you to read past posts on this forum especially in the Composting section and the Organic Gardening section. There are some super gardeners here that have contributed their knowledge and experience over many years.

 

[gardenstart]

I think the composted manure is a great idea. And the soil test idea. I tried making compost and it has been a tricky thing for me to learn. Took me awhile until I settled on using kitchen scraps and sawdust in a tumbler. I still think it doesn't even heat up, but oh well. But, in my opinion, you need to test the NPK of your compost, because it isn't guaranteed and very likely far lower than you think, at least it was for me. Maybe I'm just bad at it, though. And it can take a few different approaches to get it right. But I don't think you can go wrong with composted cow manure, it's a classic. I agree with you about avoiding chemicals, I think it's a wise choice.

How much soil area do you have for growing? If you don't have a lot of room you could use amendments like blood meal, bone meal, seaweed extract, etc. Also, get some earthworms in there, they'll help if your soil is compacted. If it's a smaller space, like part of a backyard, consider tilling if the soil has never been dug up or tilled before since you'll get those things mixed deeper into the soil right away, then put a layer on top, too.

You could also learn about using sea minerals for your soil. I'd highly recommend it. A little goes a long way. Minerals are absolutely vital (for humans, too). I made a post about it here:

Sea minerals boost plants (and human) health

In case anyone is interested, I wanted to share this info about using sea minerals in the garden. (I've no affiliation with any off these products or websites, I just wanted to share some of what I've learned over the past few years). Dr. Maynard Murray performed many studies about this in his...

www.gardening-forums.com

You can buy liquid sea minerals for pretty cheap at a couple of places in that thread (I've no affiliation). Such as:

Products

OceanSolution – Liquid Organic Fertilizer 90 minerals

oceansolution.com

Organic Certified | Sea-Crop

Welcome to the most revolutionary organic certified agricultural input material on the market. Sea-Crop is a mineral marvel!

www.sea-crop.com

Sea-90 Ocean Minerals Product Catalog

Sea-90 is proud to bring the benefits of complete mineral and trace element nutrition to your home and operation. Select the best fit for your plants and animals below.

www.sea-90.com

SeaMazing

www.seamazing.net

I think boiling water removes chlorine, too? Or buy one of those RV chlorine water filters and connect it to your hose, they're good for a season or two. And, if you're interested in water, look into water structuring. I think it really does help, for humans, too. Some products (I've no affiliation):

The Vortex Structured Water Revitalizer | Alive Water

Vortex Structured Water Revitalizer will deliver significant benefits to every water related task or activity throughout your home & business.

www.alivewater.ca

Water Purification Systems | Water Filtration Systems | Natural Action

Natural Action offers a range of water purification and filtration systems to choose from, which are designed to neutralize toxins and create balanced water

naturalaction.com

 

[fred bleuzet]

thanks everyone for the suggestions.

I use a corner of my backyard, it's not big, about 80 sqft. it's very manageable.

For the soil itself I didn't till with a shovel, I forked it after spreading on top a bag of composted cow manure from a yellow bag. And then I spread on top rye seeds and winter pea seeds. It seemed reasonable cover crops from the seed catalog. We'll see what that does next year.
Here the ground is clay, very compact.

I'll need to figure out some logistic for the water, 5 days is a long time. I have 2 buckets of 5 gallon that I fill with tap water. When I water, everything goes. We'll need a bigger boat.
August and September have been the driest months in record here, I am guessing cover crops are less demanding than tomatoes on water, so that probably buy me some time to figure out a practical system.

Got it for the cow manure, I'll go to home depot get a new bag of cow manure. I'll make that play.
Thank you for all the references, I'll need to read up on them.

That gives me some directions. Sometimes it's discouraging.

 

[gardenstart]

Clay is actually good for nutrients, it acts like a bit of a filter, retaining nutrients. But it can be bad for things like potatoes and carrots and other veggies that like loose soil. I guess it depends on how dense the clay is.

You could always rent a rototiller and could go down 18" for this first year, like French Intensive gardening (see https://www.vegetablegardenguru.com/French-intensive-gardening.html and http://www.alan-chadwick.org/html pages/techniques/garden_plants/veg_photos.html). It's an interesting technique that allows you to grow deeper roots, especially effective in smaller spaces. Never tried it, but it's interesting.

The cow manure should be composted, by the way, or it may be too high in nitrogen. But using it right now should be okay by Spring. Might be better quality from a local farmer, though. And try to find organic or you're just passing pesticides and GMO residue into your garden from the cows. I don't think Home Depot will carry composted or organic.

 

[DirtMechanic]

A very, very old system is a barrel of water into which you throw "stuff". Romans, Amazon indians, you name a pre fertilizer group and they had the idea. We call them stinky pots. Its the tea idea though with the occasional tossing out of the digested debris. Sugars get you bacteria and protiens like soybean get you mycelium "Ingham style".

 

[vtdog]

I have to say that the chances of the chlorine in the water being a cause of your "dead" soil is pretty remote. There is just not enough chlorine in tap water to impact the microbiome of the soil to any great degree.

I lived in Northern VA (Alexandria) many years ago and had a small garden. The first year I tried gardening was a disaster. The issue was twofold: compacted lawn soil and heavy clay content of the soil. I "solved" this problem by renting a tiller and mixing cow manure into the soil. I went to a farm and got two barrels for free. The barrels were very heavy, but I was much younger then and had neighbors help in the moving. This both eased the compaction and added organic matter. Due to soil compaction and heavy clay it really was not possible to work the soil without a tiller. The next year I had a much better garden. Over the next few years I added more compost/manure & coarse sand via bags bought at Hechingers (remember Hechingers?) At the end of the 5 years I lived at that property I had a very productive vegetable garden.

The soil is the key factor in gardening. Fix your soil and everything will follow

 

[roadrunner]

Hi everyone,
I live in a solid urban location (northern virginia), I tried to do gardening and it has never really worked. Every year I'm trying different things in the hope that one day it suddenly works. I'd rather be organic, else what's the point, I'm trying real hard to stay away from chemicals.
This year I am focusing on the soil food web thing where you need to have aerobic critters in the soil to be productive and have good soil structure for optimally nutritious veggies, although right now I'd be happy if anything grows at all. So now I'm not watering directly from the tap, I let the water rest about 12h before using it in the hope that the chlorine disappears; and I started a compost pile from the weed growing in the garden and also grass and few tree leaves. The pile is fairly green. I heard Elaine Ingham: multiply the aerobic microbes with compost and spread over the garden.
I'm trying to follow those 18 days compost systems (like

I like Geoff explanations) so I keep the pile wet, I turn it every evening and I cover it with a tarp like on the video. It looks straightforward, I don't think I have that part wrong.

Today I am panicking: after a week of doing this the pile is still cold, everything is green, at 1/3 the time it still looks like the first day.
That made me think that if composting is not happening is because I don't even have bacterias to get the composting started? Like my garden soil is dead.

Does anybody have any suggestion for bringing life to it? I don't have the experience.

fred

Your soil is not dead. It's virtually impossible to have sterile soil, even if one "sterilizes" their soil. Microbes are everywhere, even in severely degraded soil. Leave a banana on your clean, "sterilized" kitchen counter and it will decompose. That is the result of microbes -- they are everywhere.

Compost happens, it really only needs a couple things warm weather (not super freezing weather) and moisture. That's it.

To speed up the process you need to make sure that your ration of Carbon and Nitrogen (C:N) ingredients are mixed together well. -- not perfect, just mixed.

The process they're doing in the video in your OP is not necessary, way too much work. All you need to do is make sure you build the pile alternating so that you got a good mix of C and N items. BTW, you don't need to mix them, because nature composts naturally, it's just that it takes less time and if you throw all the greens (N) into one pile it will go anaerobic and stink -- nothing wrong with that, it just stinks and that's why I make sure to mix C:N ingredients.

I also wouldn't worry about the water having a little chlorine. However, I do like to save water, so what I do is collect water from the condensation drain from my A/C and I also save the water when I wash out my stuff that goes into the recycling bin as well as the water when I pre-wash my dishes. You want to keep you pile wet, not soggy, but wet.


BTW, How large is your compost pile?

That's important for creating a hot pile. Personally I don't mess with hot piles, because I like to make a lot of little compost piles all around the yard. Because I have very well developed soil it doesn't take long at all to breakdown.

 

[MiTmite9]

Okay, Mr. Bleuzet. So far you've garnered quite a bit of advice. I can't help myself, though. I feel compelled to share with you my method of composting. It's called "The 14-Day Compost." It is the way I learned to compost when I was 17. I took an Adult Education organic gardening class. About 12 classes in all.

One of the secrets to good and healthy compost making is to keep your compost pile DAMP, and not wet. The other little known secret (I'm joking, a bit) is that you will have loads of help in the form of Earwigs, Sowbugs, Earthworms, Ants and so on. Lots of little critters will be SO HAPPY that you're letting them help you. If you happen to have a chicken or duck close at hand, when you're turning your compost ---- Oh Happy Day for bug eaters.

Here goes. The SIX things you will need to make a 14-Day Compost:

1) You will need GREEN stuff. This means green yard clippings, but NOT anything with weed seeds. (Most home compost piles don't heat up enough to kill weed seeds.) Green also means GREEN horse manure. Or fresh rabbit or chicken droppings. With the horse manure, it is imperative that you get manure from horses which were not allowed to graze on weeds. Check with the supplier to make sure the manure wasn't sprayed for flies, too. This green stuff will constitute 1/3 of your pile.

Don't forget kitchen scraps, though. Doubtful if you will have a lot to add to your pile ---- unless you have a container where in you've saved these scraps for a while. Kitchen scraps are great and = green stuff, too.

The green stuff will work to heat up your compost pile. (Nitrogen.)

2) You will need BROWN stuff. This means dead leaves, paper goods/ cardboard (preferably shredded). Hay is a terrific addition, but make sure it wasn't treated with any herbicides and so on. This brown stuff will constitute another 1/3 of your pile.

3) Water. I wouldn't worry about tainted hose water. Preferably, though, in your garden you are using "drinking water" hoses. This means the hoses don't contain lead, phthalates, BPA, or PVC. Virgin polyurethane is the best hose material for this, but can be a bit pricey. (Personally, I don't use any water hoses in my garden unless they're deemed safe and healthy.)

You will need water to keep your compost pile damp. Decomposing microbes need moisture to live and work and the water helps transport nutrients throughout the compost pile. Think "wrung-out sponge" damp, when adding moisture to your pile.

4) A very large piece of black plastic. Or two large pieces you can overlap. It doesn't have to be thick, but you don't want to tear it and you want it to be reusable, ideally. Oh --- and some rocks to hold down the plastic, at corners and some for along the edges of the plastic.

5) A good pitchfork. It can be one of those skinny tines ones or one with thicker "blades." You just need a good strong tool to use when you're turning your pile.

6) A healthy back and a good work ethic.

You've got your ingredients.

You've hauled your materials to your composting spot. NOW --- you layer your compost: 1/3 manure and green/fresh yard clippings + kitchen scraps, 1/3 brown material and 1/3 moisture. Layer upon layer. Make each one of the green and brown layers about 6-8" deep. Spritz on the water, between the layers. Remember: Wrung-out sponge.

Just for fun: Grab a shovel and toss some garden dirt in between the layers. Not much: just a shovelful. (This will introduce beneficial microorganisms and help accelerate the decomposition process.

Cover your pile with the black plastic, using the rocks to (sort of) seal it closed to the ground. Set your reminder --- in three days, you will come back to this pile, pull off the plastic and turn the entire pile. Might want to wear a mask, as the pile will already be heating up and gassing off a bit.

Every three days, you turn the pile. It's not exactly 14 days, but you get the gist.

At the end of two weeks, you should have nice rich and usable compost.

Keep in mind that I reside in SoCal. If you're in cold country, best to try this method during warmer weather. DO NOT forget to turn your pile. Keep it damp or else you may end up creating a nursery for house flies. (In my defense, it was August.)

There are things you can add to your compost, if you have such items available. Alfalfa (green material). Sea kelp (lightly rinsed = green material). Rice hulls (brown material).

One of my favorite parts of composting is making sure we add everything we can, kitchen-scrap-wise, that is biodegradable.

Here are some things my family and I toss in with our kitchen scraps:

Scrap paper (mail --- doesn't matter if it's shiny stuff and shredded is good, newspaper, magazines, etc.)
Teabags (try to drink tea using only teabags that don't contain polypropolyene or nylon)
Dog hair and human hair
Q-tips (the cardboardy ones, of course)
Tissues
Coffee grounds (awesome addition ---- get free at a local coffee shop, when you can)
Compostable floss picks (the threads aren't compostable, however)
Pecan shells (we shell a lot of pecans)
Avocado pits (chopped up)
Bread/pizza crusts (wet down, first)
Bones from chickens and other meat things


The resulting compost from your 14-day pile will not all be completely broken down, IF you add too many twigs and don't bother to crush your eggshells before adding to the pile. Things like citrus peels can take a bit longer. We like to chop up some of our kitchen scraps and we always shred our pizza boxes. No big deal. Add everything to your garden soil and it will break down the rest of the way, later on. (Or save the bigger pieces to add to next pile.)

 

[fred bleuzet]

The forum is awesome, it's motivating.

I have few take aways. I live in Tyson Corner VA, which should be very close to what you had vtdog. Now it makes me think that the ground forking is far to be enough. I'm all planted with cover crop now, next spring I'll go deeper, maybe even trying a little bit the double dug that gardenstart mentioned.

I'll relax on the water, although I'm still interested to do some rain harvesting.

The big one is to get a good composting going. The one I'm doing is about knee high, probably not high enough.
MiTmite9 has a good recipe for composting that I can follow. The leaves started falling, soon I'll have enough for a sizeable pile. I never dared cardboard but I might as well go for it.

thank you so much everyone!

 

[roadrunner]

The forum is awesome, it's motivating.

I have few take aways. I live in Tyson Corner VA, which should be very close to what you had vtdog. Now it makes me think that the ground forking is far to be enough. I'm all planted with cover crop now, next spring I'll go deeper, maybe even trying a little bit the double dug that gardenstart mentioned.

I'll relax on the water, although I'm still interested to do some rain harvesting.

The big one is to get a good composting going. The one I'm doing is about knee high, probably not high enough.
MiTmite9 has a good recipe for composting that I can follow. The leaves started falling, soon I'll have enough for a sizeable pile. I never dared cardboard but I might as well go for it.

thank you so much everyone!

I wouldn't do the double-dig method unless you have very compacted soil, like many yards do. However, even if you're dealing with very compacted soil, once you do the double-dig method, if you manage your garden properly and always keep something growing in it you should never have to do the double-dig method again after the initial decompaction. Farmers that till every year actual are creating compacted soils

Yes, a knee-high compost pile is NOT big enough to get hot.

 

[DirtMechanic]

Mimimum size pile for heating is roughly 3x3x3 feet, or 1x1x1 meter\yard volume.

I missed any post that said you can pee on it so I am putting this here..

NH4 is something you can buy at a grocery store. In a bottle. Cheap. Or was it NH³? Anyway a stopgap trick is that a gallon of ammonia makes 17 gallons when mixed with water which a pile also needs. I use 5 gallon buckets x3 or less when a pile dies. You will want to google it up and understand the difference and how it can boost a pile.

And oxygen is key. I have 5 thinwall pvc pipe under my pile that I drilled 3\4 hole in one one half, and they face up. water out and O2 in that way.

 

[PGB1]

I used to cover the compost pile and turn it daily. Some years later, lazy boy mode kicked in.

Leaving it un-covered sped things up tremendously as far as material breaking down. I don't know if it was the UV from the sun, extra microbes falling in, air currents- but something sped up things. On cold winter days, the pile sometimes steams, so heat's happening.

I also used to turn the pile over every other day. Now, I turn probably once a month. It still decomposes the stuff. Naturally, the critters who visit at night help turn it over after I've added new, tasty treats! (And they deliver- Today I found an orange in there.)